Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4551 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:08 am

Dog wrote:that more than meaningless physical traits have a genetic basis).


And we an talk about that too, as that’s not an obvious thing. Could well lead to more than physical differences. Lots of differences between humans and chimps can be attributable to genes, such as intelligence. Not at all obvious that genetic differences, affecting physical traits, won’t also affect other human traits. Absolutely a valid question and not an obvious one. I don’t think we should shy away from it, that just leaves people to draw their own conclusions (and the normal a priori reasoning would be “if it affects skin colour so much, why would their be no effect on intelligence, for example”.

The answer is twofold, to my understanding:

1) phenotype variance affecting things like skin colour/eye colour/hair colour/etc. are very simple in that only a very small number of genes interract (and thus mutations to alleles making the adaption possible are much more likely than for more complex processes). In addition to being more likely (smaller number of genes involved), it’s also highly reactive to environment. Will adapt quickly (evolutionary speaking) to more/less sunlight. Something like “intelligence” is pretty much at the opposite side of the complexity scale. It’s derived form an enormously (and still not well understood) interraction between a multitude of genes given expression in given environments. Therefore the likelyhood of chance mutations having a material impact on intelligence is much less likely (and would statistically take much more time to evolve) than for very simple mutations as skin colour.

2) statistics again. The fact that, regardless of whether we are speaking of easy to adapt physical traits or hard to adapt complex traits, the overwhelming amount of human diversity is intra group and not inter group. This is inescapable. It should, for any rational person, end any notion of “racial superiority”. If you are looking for the “most smart” (and that has a pretty strong genetical/hereditary component, subject to expression in a given environment), “race” is of near zero statistical value as a predictor. The variability is much greater intra group. You gotta look at the individual level dor things like this. You actually have to look at the individual level for most things, given the multiple times more strong variability intra group than inter group. Race, meant as genetic inheritance, is of near zero statistical value. Look at individuals and -very importantly- look at environment, as genes will only develop or not develop to a given potential in most part based on the environment.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4552 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:16 am

Craig wrote:Of course ad disagrees with you right before I post that. Sigh.


That’s because, contrary to what’s not being recognized here, there are subtle differences in interpretationthat actually skew people’s perspective of what a race or ethnicity is. Where not “all saying the same thing”. There are misconceptions being gleaned over that, well, leads to very smart people thinking “race is more than physical traits but not as wide as ethnicity”. What’s the gap referred to? What, in race, is not physical appearance (broadly) but also not cultural. What other traits (than broad physical traits) are “genetic” and go to the definition of race but not the socially acquired aspects of ethnicity? These are “legacy” conceptions from debunked theories. Pas méchant, but merits some discussion.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4553 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:20 am

Craig wrote:[I think ethnicity means the same thing you do. I do not think ethnicity is 100% genetics. I do not think most people think ethnicity is 100% genetics. Nous sommes en accord.


Most people think that you need some genetic commonality (through some “shared ancestry”) to be considered an ethnicity but that ethnicity is wider than that and only some physical traits are genetically inherited the rest is socially acquired?

Agreed.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4554 by Craig » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:25 am

Dog wrote:
Craig wrote:Of course ad disagrees with you right before I post that. Sigh.


That’s because, contrary to what’s not being recognized here, there are subtle differences in interpretationthat actually skew people’s perspective of what a race or ethnicity is. Where not “all saying the same thing”. There are misconceptions being gleaned over that, well, leads to very smart people thinking “race is more than physical traits but not as wide as ethnicity”. What’s the gap referred to? What, in race, is not physical appearance (broadly) but also not cultural. What other traits (than broad physical traits) are “genetic” and go to the definition of race but not the socially acquired aspects of ethnicity? These are “legacy” conceptions from debunked theories. Pas méchant, but merits some discussion.


Nobody cares, dog.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4555 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:27 am

Craig wrote:
Nobody cares, dog.


Okey dokey. We just throw concepts around, pretent everbody is saying the same thing, talk past each other, and when the discussion goes longer than a few posts, we just move along?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4556 by Craig » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:29 am

What discussion? It's mostly you rambling on and telling me I believe stuff I don't believe and everyone else going "wtf are you on about?"
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4557 by Craig » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:30 am

Nobody has expressed a counter view for you to debate against here. Well, ad did this morning, but he's just trolling you now.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4558 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:52 am

Craig wrote:Nobody has expressed a counter view for you to debate against here. Well, ad did this morning, but he's just trolling you now.


My sincere appologies if I made you feel attacked. I was merely trying to adress a concept that, to my eyes, kept shifting. I attributed amd attribute 0 prejudice to you. I’m quite convinced I have a higher level of prejudices than you do. That’s not it at all.

When Nick and I were talking past each other we were actually simply disagreeing on the concept of ethnicity. He has a very “language heavy” view of it and was throwing things like “take care of your own” (which can be a valid point) without realizing he was talking about ethnicity (it’s language +, not just language). In that concept, the 100% genetic threw me off. I relied that ethnicity is wider and you clarified that colloquially it genetic. I’ve since been saying that that is problematic (thinking ethnicity is 100% genetic as nobody will fundamentally believe ethnicity is just physical traits without associated traits and that I thought most people distinguish the two -physical = genes, non-physical=environment and so we have to nuance as unclarified it leads to misconceptions (ie. more than physical traits are inherited). Initially, I wasn’t sure whether you made the distinction, it’s abondantly clear that you do now and we’ve agreed om what is said. Great! A bit of miswording on one part, a bit over nitpicking on terminology on the other.

I disagree “that everybody agrees and is saying the same thing”. Nick (what started all this) was referring to a ethnicity when he thought he wasn’t (trying to show him he was is what lead to this discussion). AD seems to think (without any malice I’m absolutely convinced) that race is more than phenotypes inhereted broad physical traits but less than the socially acquired traits implicit in ethnicity.

These are little things, but they show that concepts, especially as central as this one to human organization, are not equally understood and that can have subtle implications. Nobody is racist here. That’s not at all the point. But some “misunderstanding” of concepts leads to some “legacy” notions from previous theories to linger. It’s not a mallicious thing. People won’t do in depth research on everything (well most people). But “notions” get dissiminated in society and people make (reasonable) inferences which can, on examination, warrant conscious revision. That’s all I’m trying to do. Discuss concepts rationally. If I made a mistake, love to get it pointed out and I’ll revise my thinking. If I spot another, in people I think can handle the conceptual discussion, I’ll try to address it.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4559 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:13 pm

Retardé S wrote:I think the conflict is also cultural and not as centralized in politics as it seems all the time. I don't think the common folk has a deep understanding of government, where it is and where it should go. I just think that hollywood constantly tells people what to think about important issues and a lot of the times the concepts they spew are truly short sighted ideas and distorted realities. Leftist government align themselves with those talking points hoping to take a hold on popularity and it's blowing up in their face. It also happens the other way around and it just became too much. You can't tell people what or how to think.

Not saying that racial nationalism doesn't exist, but the blowback against leftist governments and culture is not always due to opposing social justice or immigration, we're in a pretty diverse and accepting society as is and the vast majority of white people treat you well :danson: . I suspect it's more about the how than the what.

"it's more about the how than the what", I totally just sounded like a white california mom right there.


If we are talking about Canada, I absolutely agree that it is a vastly tolerant society. One of the very highest immigration rates in thr world and one where integration has worked well (less so in Quebec). Anywho, compared to most everywhere else in the world, we’re near leeaders on this front -amongst a select group that has their shit together on this thing. That said, I think immigration is a wider issue that “cultural clash”. I think it needs to be rational -in terms of pros and cons. Did some reserach recently, have some conclusions I don’t particularly consider on firm ground. Love to discuss and get input, but that’s another subject and people get longasspost(tm) weary.

My posts here weren’t about a particular “nationalist racism” problem. They are really just conceptual. What is an ethnicity/peoples/race as that is a central organizing principal for the humans (its their social unit) at a collective level above the immidiate family. It kinda takes kinship notions and stretches them to wide groups (now numbering hundreds of millions). The kinship assumption underpinning it becomes limiting, in my view, especially when there isn’t any kinship at any meaningful level for these large groups. That was sorta the initial discussion with nick -do we have to take an unquestioned notion of an ethnie as the basis for establishing borders of a modern polity. To get to it though, it seems like we’ve had to go through a mountain of exchanges clarifying the concept -what it is, what it isn’t- so that, once we are clear on its nature, we can discuss how it applies to different models.

I’m not that convinced at all that “ethnicity” shouldn’t matter and we can switch to a more “rational” boundaries of political polities. I think it’s a “natural” (ie. deep seated) “reflex”. I have to be super careful because I don’t think I’m in the majority in the manner in which I view things. I heavily discount what I consider “non rational” elements. I’m sorta an accountant in spirit as we all know. That’s not everybody or even most people. Emotions may guide others more. They guide me too, of course, but I have a weird overriding desire to conform to reasoned analysis. If something “doesn’t make sense” to me “rationally”, I’ll toss it. Doesn’t mean I’m right. My premises and assumptions can certainly be wrong. Doesn’t mean that’s the right way to live, either. That’s me, may not be others. Others may need and want more/other considerations. More intuitive, more emotions/passions based. That’s fine and beyond something over which I have any control.

So, when I think “yeah, we can move beyond ethnicity as an organizing principle” it seems obvious to me. “Yeah, we can move past religion and adopt a purely physicalist view of the universe” also makes natural sense to me. But I’m likely in the minority.

So when I think “yeah, we can construct social units rationally and discuss what should be considered as valid criteria to to give weight in the building of our construct” I may, very well, be grossly underestimating that others won’t feel that way. They “feel this” and don’t want to be rationally argued out of it. In fact, trying to do so can backfire. At the same time, can’t help but feel that Brexit is retarded and opine on that.

I’m conscious I have to temper my instincts as they won’t be widely shared necessarily. But here, you know, I just like to discuss with other smart mens. Flesh out ideas. Get to the end and think “you sure about that dog, feelings of kinship run deep for many and the fact that ethnicity is hardly kinship in any real sense it is in the popular psyche. So your federating with Sweden and whatnot makes sense in your mind, but you’re going to blow it up with your deconstructing and reconstructing shit”. I take Nick’s input seriously. I further juggle with it, reflect on it and absolutely wound mind discussing it further. By myself, I’m stuck with my own blinspots.

On what you are saying, which is similar to Nick’s (you two of courae have a similar take on this. Happy for you to expand on it. What exactly is this “people like to think on their own”? Practically speaking. I wouldn’t mind some examples to better grasp what you have in mind. Also wouldn’t mind understand what you have in mind as a “better way” to conduct public discourse. If you feel like, of course. There’s always the dog containment thread that’s evidently working wonderfully well. :-)
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4560 by Retardé S » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:29 pm

Dog wrote:
Retardé S wrote:I think the conflict is also cultural and not as centralized in politics as it seems all the time. I don't think the common folk has a deep understanding of government, where it is and where it should go. I just think that hollywood constantly tells people what to think about important issues and a lot of the times the concepts they spew are truly short sighted ideas and distorted realities. Leftist government align themselves with those talking points hoping to take a hold on popularity and it's blowing up in their face. It also happens the other way around and it just became too much. You can't tell people what or how to think.

Not saying that racial nationalism doesn't exist, but the blowback against leftist governments and culture is not always due to opposing social justice or immigration, we're in a pretty diverse and accepting society as is and the vast majority of white people treat you well :danson: . I suspect it's more about the how than the what.

"it's more about the how than the what", I totally just sounded like a white california mom right there.


If we are talking about Canada, I absolutely agree that it is a vastly tolerant society. One of the very highest immigration rates in thr world and one where integration has worked well (less so in Quebec). Anywho, compared to most everywhere else in the world, we’re near leeaders on this front -amongst a select group that has their shit together on this thing. That said, I think immigration is a wider issue that “cultural clash”. I think it needs to be rational -in terms of pros and cons. Did some reserach recently, have some conclusions I don’t particularly consider on firm ground. Love to discuss and get input, but that’s another subject and people get longasspost(tm) weary.

My posts here weren’t about a “nationalist racism” problem. They are really just conceptual. What an ethnicity/peoples/race is as that is a central organizing principal for the humans (its their social unit) at a collective level above the immidiate family. It kinda takes kinship notions and stretches them to wide groups (now numbering hundreds of millions). The kinship assumption underpinning it becomes limiting, in my view, especially when there isn’t any kinship at any meaningful level for these large groups. That was sorta the initial discussion with nick -do we have to take an unquestioned notion of an ethnie as the basis for self establishing borders of a modern polity. To get to it though, it seems like we’ve had to go through a mountain of exchanges clarifying the concept -what it is, what it isn’t- so that, once we are clear on its nature, we can discuss its pertinence regarding different given circumstances.

I’m not that convinced at all “ethnicity” shouldn’t matter and we can switch to a more “rational” delimitation of political boundaries. I think it’s a “natural” (ie. deep seated) “reflex”. I have to be super careful because I don’t think I’m in the majority in the manner in which I view things. I heavily discount what I consider “non rational” elements. I’m sorta an accountant in spirit as we all know. That’s not everybody or more most people. Emotions guide others much more. They guide me too, of course, but I have a weird overriding desire to conform to reasoned analysis. If something “doesn’t make sense” to me “rationally”, I’ll toss it. Doesn’t mean I’m right. My premises can certainly be wrong and I always try to do my best to validate them. Doesn’t mean that’s the right way to live, either. That’s me, may not be others. Others may need and want more/other considerations. More intuitive, more emotions/passions based. That’s fine and beyond something over which I have no control.

So, when I think “yeah, we can move beyond ethnicity as an organizing principle” it seems obvious to. “Yeah, we can move past religion and adopt a purely physicalist view of the universe” also makes natural sense to me. But I’m likely in the minority.

So when I think “yeah, we can construct social units rationally and discuss what should be considered as valid criteria to to give weight in the building of our construct” I may, very well, be grossly underestimating that others won’t feel that way. They “feel this” and don’t want to be rationally argued out of it. In fact, trying to do so can backfire. At the same time, can’t help but feel that Brexit is retarded and opine on that.

I’m conscious I have to temper my instincts as they won’t be widely shared necessarily. But here, you know, I just like to discuss with other smart mens. Flesh out ideas. Get to the end and think “you sure about that dog, feelings of kinship run deep for many and the fact that ethnicity is hardly kinship in any real sense it is in the popular psyche. So your federating with Sweden and whatnot makes sense in your mind, but you’re going to blow it up with your deconstructing and reconstructing shit”. I take Nick’s input seriously. I further juggle with it, reflect on it and absolutely wound mind discussing it further. By myself, I’m stuck with my own blinspots.

On what you are saying, which is similar to Nick’s (you two of courae have a similar take on this. Happy for you to expand on it. What exactly is this “people like to think on their own”? Practically speaking. I wouldn’t mind some examples to better grasp what you have in mind. Also wouldn’t mind understand what you have in mind as a “better way” to conduct public discourse. If you feel like, of course. There’s always the dog containment thread that’s evidently working wonderfully well. :-)



I don't believe we necessarily have to move past ethnicity and religion, but to continue gaining a better understanding of the individual in a collective setting which I think is the main reason why western society in general has thrived, even if it's not perfect. Eventually maybe we'll entirely move past constructs like religion, ethnicity, race, the court system, employment... who knows, but I don't think it's necessarily the key to this whole thing.

I'm also aware I have my own biases because of how I grew up and experienced the world (my experience with immigration, integration, religion ect.). The main problem I often encounter when analyzing society is that I don't know everything, I'm not omnipresent. I think the states has bigger issues when it comes the racial divide and economic equality, but it's a pretty good society to live in still. We identify patterns, but inside those patterns there are variables that we often don't take into account. Even the most unbiased and well intentioned approach can still be wrong. That doesn't mean however that our perspectives are not valid. I think people mostly have a hard time accepting that two things can be right at the same time and it's not always right or wrong...but then some people abuse the idea to escape moral responsibility, but that's another topic.

I'll later expand my view on hollywood and the media on telling people how to think and what to think and how it's affecting the perception of liberals. I'll take it to the containment thread.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4561 by senate » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:31 pm

Is Dog a secret Bernier supporter? He or she won't shut up about ethnics but keeps insisting it has nothing to do with race.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4562 by senate » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:32 pm

And whenever he doesn't get his way he blames the Anglos.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4563 by AD » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:37 pm

Wouldn't surprise me. He's generally a live and let live type of guy like most libertarians.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4564 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:51 pm

senate wrote:And whenever he doesn't get his way he blames the Anglos.


This is blatantly untrue. I blame widely and indiscriminately.

:crossarms:
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4565 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:51 pm

Dog wrote:
senate wrote:And whenever he doesn't get his way he blames the Anglos.


This is blatantly untrue. I blame widely and indiscriminately.

:crossarms:


Discuss. I mean, discuss. Of course. Typo.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4566 by Dog » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:59 pm

senate wrote:Is Dog a secret Bernier supporter? He or she won't shut up about ethnics but keeps insisting it has nothing to do with race.


Did you also catch me saying agro subsidies are retarded?

:paranoid:
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4567 by senate » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:10 pm

Good news Ontario broads, we are going to get to pay for Toronto's subway! Forever!

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4568 by WTF » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:52 pm

senate wrote:Good news Ontario broads, we are going to get to pay for Toronto's subway! Forever!



If it's any consolation, Doug "Subways! Subways! Subways!" Ford is probably going to try to blow money on subway lines to Ottawa and Thunder Bay.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4569 by Germz » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:37 pm

I just realized Trudeau is going to lose next year.

Ford's bullheaded dickishness is the only thing that might allow Justin to hang onto a minority.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4570 by WTF » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:10 pm



"Folks, these so-called laws have bound my hands so after cancelling cap & trade and now getting cutoff from federal funds, setting up a provincial snitch line for so-called progressive sex education, I'm going to continue punching you all in the balls because we all know that's what you've voted for. Promise made, promise kept!"
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4571 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:28 am

This hot take that trudeau is responsible for trump being crazy while negotiating puzzles me
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4572 by chicpea » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:59 am

People need to chill the fuck out and remember it could be Harper and and Jib Flaherty doing this deal.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4573 by Germz » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:06 am

Jagmeet Singh's irrelevance may also help Trudeau keep that minority.

No doubt Trudeau's been put in a lose-lose situation re: both NAFTA and the pipeline stuff. But it's going to generate a ton of ammunition against him.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4574 by Craig » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:13 am

I thought the NAFTA stuff was helping him? Patriotically standing up to Trump and all that.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4575 by senate » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:23 am

Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour. The Conservative Party and its natural pro-American disposition is going to be a major liability in the next election.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4576 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:24 am

Craig wrote:I thought the NAFTA stuff was helping him? Patriotically standing up to Trump and all that.


The sun and post media folks are running with the conservative criticism that somehow trudeau shpuld have done better. That type of lock step criticism may ne effective in the long run
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4577 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:25 am

senate wrote:Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour. The Conservative Party and its natural pro-American disposition is going to be a major liability in the next election.


Most of our media is going rather pro american at the moment...
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4578 by senate » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:45 am

mayoradamwest wrote:
Craig wrote:I thought the NAFTA stuff was helping him? Patriotically standing up to Trump and all that.


The sun and post media folks are running with the conservative criticism that somehow trudeau shpuld have done better. That type of lock step criticism may ne effective in the long run


I think a lot of those editorials were written and in the can before Trump bragged about America never negotiating in good faith. Despite all their articles lamenting the low productivity of the Canadian worker, I doubt conservative opinion writers are willing to work on a Friday afternoon before a long weekend.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4579 by Craig » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:22 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
senate wrote:Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour. The Conservative Party and its natural pro-American disposition is going to be a major liability in the next election.


Most of our media is going rather pro american at the moment...


Most, or just Postmedia?
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4580 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:53 pm

Craig wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
senate wrote:Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour. The Conservative Party and its natural pro-American disposition is going to be a major liability in the next election.


Most of our media is going rather pro american at the moment...


Most, or just Postmedia?


Sun chain and post media... they are the majority i believe due to all the small town papera they own which seem to put out the same opinilns with different names across the country
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4581 by Craig » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:29 pm

Meh, they're all going to run hit pieces on Trudeau regardless.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4582 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:39 pm

True. I just find the line of argument more than absurd.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4583 by Germz » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm

Craig wrote:I thought the NAFTA stuff was helping him? Patriotically standing up to Trump and all that.


Short-term gain, long-term pain IMO. But we'll see.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4584 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:17 pm

senate wrote:Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour. The Conservative Party and its natural pro-American disposition is going to be a major liability in the next election.


I hope you're right. On the other hand, this will be spun by the cons as indicative of Trudeau's incompetence, inadequate communication skills and general inability to roll up his sleeves and get shit done because he is too preoccupied with his haircut. And hence we will need serious people (cons) at the negotiating table.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4585 by Boring Choice #2 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:01 pm

That would be a great argument, if they didn't have this guy as their leader.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4586 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:36 pm

Imagine the NDP represented by someone who is not a complete joke. Dig up Layton's corpse and let's go.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4587 by senate » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:15 pm

The federal New Democratic Party is just a spooky story created to scare Sun newspaper readers and AM News radio listeners. It is no more real than the boogeyman, the Ontario NDP, or the female orgasm.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4588 by chicpea » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:25 am

Boring Choice #2 wrote:That would be a great argument, if they didn't have this guy as their leader.
Image


Steve would never wear a tie with such brazen flamboyance.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4589 by mayoradamwest » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:38 pm

Munk debates set to debate neoconservatism vs the alt-right with a night of bannon vs frum.


:suicide:
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4590 by Roughneck » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:27 pm

senate wrote:Yeah, Germz is out of the loop. Trump has brought Canadian nationalism back. People are actually talking about the importance of Canada's pride and honour.


It is my patriotic duty to pay a grossly inflated price for inferior cheese!
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4591 by chicpea » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:05 am

mayoradamwest wrote:Munk debates set to debate neoconservatism vs the alt-right with a night of bannon vs frum.


:suicide:


Joan Munk is rolling in her grave.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4592 by mayoradamwest » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:38 am

chicpea wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:Munk debates set to debate neoconservatism vs the alt-right with a night of bannon vs frum.


:suicide:


Joan Munk is rolling in her grave.


Spinning brought to you by brawndo
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4593 by senate » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Doug Ford really hates Toronto city hall.

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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4594 by mayoradamwest » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:10 pm

Seriously using the notwithstanding clause?

What a joke
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4595 by Boring Choice #2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:27 pm

Honestly the judge should not have ruled that way. There is no requirement for democracy at the municipal level and the provincial government can do whatever the hell they want with municipalities. I think the judge overstepped his bounds and this will ultimately be overturned constitutionally.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4596 by Craig » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:51 pm

Boring Choice #2 wrote:Honestly the judge should not have ruled that way. There is no requirement for democracy at the municipal level and the provincial government can do whatever the hell they want with municipalities. I think the judge overstepped his bounds and this will ultimately be overturned constitutionally.


That's cuz you're nutters. The ruling was obvious and justified. Going to the notwithstanding clause over a trifling matter like this is absurd. If they vote it through I hope the feds intervene.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4597 by Boring Choice #2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:24 pm

The constitution set out responsibilities of the federal and provincial governments, of which municipalities are a provincial responsibility, just like healthcare, education and licensing issues.

No one cares that senior management of Hydro One or MPAC are not democratically elected. And I doubt that they would care if School Board trustees were no longer democratically elected. These are all organizations that provide services to the public in the province and are under the Province's perview. Other than tradition, there is no real difference.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4598 by Boring Choice #2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:30 pm

Surprisingly, Maclean's makes a good argument on the subject

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/doug-fo ... -down/amp/
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4599 by senate » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:45 pm

Ah yes, Emmett Macfarlane, the legal expert with no legal background. If Canada has ever had a judicial decision that wasn't judicial activism, he's never seen it.
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Re: Maybe a joke about Bill Morneau ... if not Greg

Post #4600 by Boring Choice #2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:51 pm

The judge's argument was essentially that he didn't like the timing of the legislation and some convoluted argument that it impacts freedom of expression and effective representation.

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