Paris

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Craig
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Re: Paris

Post #51 by Craig » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:28 pm

I looked up the actual study. It had quite a few formatting and arithmetical errors in the summary tables, but that 16% is what they reported. Whole population, not just Muslims. Must be a sample size problem or something.
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Re: Paris

Post #52 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:37 pm



Quel album though!
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Re: Paris

Post #53 by Retarder S » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:45 pm

SHIT, SLIQUÉ EST DANS LA FUCKING PLACE
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Re: Paris

Post #54 by Balki Bartokomous » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:46 pm

Thoughts and prayers to all the victims. May this get them through their grief and suffering.

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Re: Paris

Post #55 by Balki Bartokomous » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:48 pm

Slick Nick wrote:Either the french are terrible at integrating people or the people don't want to integrate.. probably a bit of both.


Ever been to France? If you don't speak French, they couldn't give a shit about you. Honestly, surprised they don't have this happen more often. They are awful.
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Re: Paris

Post #56 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:50 pm

Craig wrote:I looked up the actual study. It had quite a few formatting and arithmetical errors in the summary tables, but that 16% is what they reported. Whole population, not just Muslims. Must be a sample size problem or something.


Image

Source: economist

France seems to harbor more isis supporters than other countries.. but the numbers of the other poll make no sense.
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Re: Paris

Post #57 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:52 pm

The Social Assassin wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:Either the french are terrible at integrating people or the people don't want to integrate.. probably a bit of both.


Ever been to France? If you don't speak French, they couldn't give a shit about you. Honestly, surprised they don't have this happen more often. They are awful.


If you don't speak french I don't give a shit about you either to be quite honnest m8.
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Re: Paris

Post #58 by Slick Nick » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:52 pm

Retarder S wrote:
SHIT, SLIQUÉ EST DANS LA FUCKING PLACE


:superghey:
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Re: Paris

Post #59 by Balki Bartokomous » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:57 pm

Remember when they published a photo of a drowned child in Hebdo and it said, Jesus walked on water, while Muslim kids drown.........they ask for this kind of stuff because they aren't inclusive. But on the other hand, the immigrants don't do a good job of trying to be inclusive either, they need to start co-mingling and have Mulatto babies.
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Re: Paris

Post #60 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:01 am

Well, I'm convinced.
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Re: Paris

Post #61 by Retarder S » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:11 am

Inclusive or non-inclusive, immigrants tend not to give a fuck anyway. Their children will though, to a certain extent.

But I also believe it's correlated with their financial situation. Money often dictates priorities.
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Re: Paris

Post #62 by Mufasa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:30 am

The Social Assassin wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:Either the french are terrible at integrating people or the people don't want to integrate.. probably a bit of both.


Ever been to France? If you don't speak French, they couldn't give a shit about you. Honestly, surprised they don't have this happen more often. They are awful.


Most of those Arabs speak French before arriving to France. And like Slick said, I dont care much about you if you dont speak French either brav.

The thing is that most French immigrants are coming from former French colony where their ancestors have been raped by French colonists for hundred of years. They have a lot of ressentment toward France.
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Re: Paris

Post #63 by Balki Bartokomous » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:40 am

Retarder S wrote:Inclusive or non-inclusive, immigrants tend not to give a fuck anyway. Their children will though, to a certain extent.

But I also believe it's correlated with their financial situation. Money often dictates priorities.


This is true, they tend to stick to their own kind, which I never really understood. I usually dislike my own kind, but that's how it is. Hopefully it changes with time.

Mufasa wrote:
Most of those Arabs speak French before arriving to France. And like Slick said, I dont care much about you if you dont speak French either brav.

The thing is that most French immigrants are coming from former French colony where their ancestors have been raped by French colonists for hundred of years. They have a lot of ressentment toward France.


I can agree with this, lots of Zidane type people I guess.
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Re: Paris

Post #64 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:36 am

Craig wrote:I looked up the actual study. It had quite a few formatting and arithmetical errors in the summary tables, but that 16% is what they reported. Whole population, not just Muslims. Must be a sample size problem or something.

Can't be sample size with 1,000 people. Either the question was ambiguous, or the people making the calls were incompetent, or they somehow oversampled Muslims by over 500%. Or some combination of these things.
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Re: Paris

Post #65 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:57 am

vf wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:
Retarder S wrote:You think twitterers are Apollo creed fans?


I think that Westerners are generally indifferent to human suffering in the non-West, which includes Russia, China and the middle east.


I'm sure Russians and Chinese openly wept for the Boston Marathon victims.


There was widespread sympathy for the Boston Marathon victims around the world. However when it comes time for the West to express sympathy they will say "je suis France", but never "I am Russia" nor "I am Lebanon".
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Re: Paris

Post #66 by akiberg » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:59 am

Did France surrender?
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Re: Paris

Post #67 by AD » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:27 am

Craig is a muslim?
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Re: Paris

Post #68 by mcphee » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:52 am

I've met Craig on 3 occasions and never questioned him about his religion. I feel that maybe I should've asked. Move our relationship to another level.
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Re: Paris

Post #69 by Craig » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:40 am

embracedbias wrote:
Craig wrote:I looked up the actual study. It had quite a few formatting and arithmetical errors in the summary tables, but that 16% is what they reported. Whole population, not just Muslims. Must be a sample size problem or something.

Can't be sample size with 1,000 people. Either the question was ambiguous, or the people making the calls were incompetent, or they somehow oversampled Muslims by over 500%. Or some combination of these things.


The question was straightforward. Or, it was as worded in English.
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Re: Paris

Post #70 by Craig » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:41 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
vf wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:
I think that Westerners are generally indifferent to human suffering in the non-West, which includes Russia, China and the middle east.


I'm sure Russians and Chinese openly wept for the Boston Marathon victims.


There was widespread sympathy for the Boston Marathon victims around the world. However when it comes time for the West to express sympathy they will say "je suis France", but never "I am Russia" nor "I am Lebanon".


Yes, we sympathize more with allies and people we can relate to. Also Western Europe in general. Nobody really gave a fuck about the Aussie nightclub bombings either.
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Re: Paris

Post #71 by Craig » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:42 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Craig wrote:I looked up the actual study. It had quite a few formatting and arithmetical errors in the summary tables, but that 16% is what they reported. Whole population, not just Muslims. Must be a sample size problem or something.


Image

Source: economist

France seems to harbor more isis supporters than other countries.. but the numbers of the other poll make no sense.


Odd that the numbers for Iraq and Turkey are so low.
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Re: Paris

Post #72 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:00 am

There was Aussie nightclub bombings?
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Re: Paris

Post #73 by AD » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:27 am

That was my thought as well, Dog.

Craig is suspiciously well informed.
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Re: Paris

Post #74 by Craig » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:13 am

Well, I guess it was technically Indonesian. Which speaks even more to the point we only care about those we relate to.
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Re: Paris

Post #75 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:23 am

Bali?

That was a bit of a big deal. I mean, Westerners were killed.

And, yes, humans like other social animals have deeply ingrained in/out group reflexes where we care most about ourselves and close kin and care progressively less about those further from us. Genes of organisms that do that tend to survive more and be around in greater numbers. What would you do to save your child, your cousin, some nameless somali kid? None of this is particularly insightful. For some reason, we always seem to have to revist this every time there is a tragedy because somebody always brings up "yeah, but kids die in Papua Guinea too". If nothing else, humans are getting closer and more inclusive overall.
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Re: Paris

Post #76 by Sturminator » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:41 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
vf wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:I think that Westerners are generally indifferent to human suffering in the non-West, which includes Russia, China and the middle east.


I'm sure Russians and Chinese openly wept for the Boston Marathon victims.


There was widespread sympathy for the Boston Marathon victims around the world. However when it comes time for the West to express sympathy they will say "je suis France", but never "I am Russia" nor "I am Lebanon".

The fact that France is not openly hostile to other western countries may have something to do with it. Transporting our feelings about a given country's politics onto its citizens is unfair, but everyone does it.

Also, questions of identity between Russia and the west are asymmetrical. Westerners very rarely identify Russia as being part of western culture, while European Russians seem to at least partially identify themselves as westerners. The exclusive attitude on the part of present-day westerners vis-á-vis Russia is a largely misguided relic of the cold war, but it is what it is, and obviously Russia's political establishment has played a large role in selling that narrative to the rest of the world.
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Re: Paris

Post #77 by IcE ColD » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:43 am

Slick Nick wrote:

Quel album though!


It was an awesome album indeed.
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Re: Paris

Post #78 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:47 am

They apparently were attempting to target liberal and progressive parts of Paris. They're trying to provoke a culture war and, to be sure, there is no compatibility between liberalism and Islamism.

So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.
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Re: Paris

Post #79 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:55 am

One strategy would be to figure out how many Muslims were killed (surely there were a few) and widely publicize it. Would work best if it includes a devout conservative Muslim with children and so one. The number of deaths is too abstract and the ISIS narrative too salient. This sort of thing has to lead to genuine disgust from the group of people that ISIS looks to for support.
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Re: Paris

Post #80 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:13 am

Liberal bastion that is international soccer games?
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Re: Paris

Post #81 by Retarder S » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:21 am

I don't think it's a compatibility issue at that point. It has to do with propagated hate and a will to imperialize the west when it comes to people from ISIS and that support groups like that and their ideology. That's where the war is. Not the west vs ISIS, but rather the west vs radical islam.

Compatibility issues, cultural differences - A bunch of immigrant ethnicities can struggle with that when they settle into a new country, but it doesn't prompt them to kill people or/and develop disdain for people who don't subscribe to their beliefs.
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Re: Paris

Post #82 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:58 am

Dog wrote:Liberal bastion that is international soccer games?


the other targets. soccer game was obviously just numbers.
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Re: Paris

Post #83 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:07 pm

Dog wrote:Liberal bastion that is international soccer games?

Image
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Re: Paris

Post #84 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:33 pm

Sounds like they had an opportunity in Paris, because of local organization, targeted soft targets where crowds gathered (outside of football stadium, restaurants, concert venue, etc) and then tried to wrap it up in some odd form of crusade/prostitution justification.

Don't doubt they are anti-liberal, but you can't take the concert venue because it fits your narrative and disregard the stadium and random restaurants because it doesn't.

:dunno:
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Re: Paris

Post #85 by Mufasa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:33 pm

So yeah, there was a Syrian refugee among the attackers.
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Re: Paris

Post #86 by Sturminator » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:43 pm

embracedbias wrote:So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.

Addressing the soul-crushing poverty and exclusion from which many Algerians in France suffer with something other than symbolic burqa bans and talk of "cleaning out the banlieus" might be a step in the right direction, as well. A big part of the reason Germany's Turkish population is vastly less radicalized than the French Algerians is simply that they have a higher standard of living.
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Re: Paris

Post #87 by Mufasa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Sturminator wrote:
embracedbias wrote:So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.

Addressing the soul-crushing poverty and exclusion from which many Algerians in France suffer with something other than symbolic burqa bans and talk of "cleaning out the banlieus" might be a step in the right direction, as well. A big part of the reason Germany's Turkish population is vastly less radicalized than the French Algerians is simply that they have a higher standard of living.


Turkish people have higher standards of living than algérien, wherever they are.
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Re: Paris

Post #88 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Dog wrote:Sounds like they had an opportunity in Paris, because of local organization, targeted soft targets where crowds gathered (outside of football stadium, restaurants, concert venue, etc) and then tried to wrap it up in some odd form of crusade/prostitution justification.

Don't doubt they are anti-liberal, but you can't take the concert venue because it fits your narrative and disregard the stadium and random restaurants because it doesn't.

:dunno:


were the restaurants not in liberal neighborhoods?
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Re: Paris

Post #89 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:52 pm

Sturminator wrote:
embracedbias wrote:So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.

Addressing the soul-crushing poverty and exclusion from which many Algerians in France suffer with something other than symbolic burqa bans and talk of "cleaning out the banlieus" might be a step in the right direction, as well. A big part of the reason Germany's Turkish population is vastly less radicalized than the French Algerians is simply that they have a higher standard of living.

do we know that hey were Algerian? Or are you just talking more generally?
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Re: Paris

Post #90 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:00 pm

Mufasa wrote:So yeah, there was a Syrian refugee among the attackers.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... c2edb6cc74

Syrian passport found on Paris attacker's body belonged to refugee who passed through Greece

The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night’s attacks in Paris passed though Greece in October, a Greek minister told Reuters.

“The holder of the passport passed through the island of Leros on 3 October 2015, where he was identified according to EU rules,” said Nikos Toscas, Greece’s deputy minister in charge of policing.

A Greek police source told Reuters that European countries had been asked to check the passport holder to see if they had been registered.

While this heavily implies that one of the gunman came into Europe along with refugees, Syrian passports are known to be valuable currency amongst those trying to enter Europe, and it is not yet confirmed whether the holder of the passport is indeed the perpetrator.
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Re: Paris

Post #91 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:51 pm

Interesting choice of words by Hollande after the attacks: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless."
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Re: Paris

Post #92 by Mufasa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:12 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:Interesting choice of words by Hollande after the attacks: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless."



In French it's less dramatic than the english translation.
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Re: Paris

Post #93 by Macbeth » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:03 pm

Mufasa wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:Interesting choice of words by Hollande after the attacks: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless."



In French it's less dramatic than the english translation.


He did say guerre, though.

As dramatic as the translation is, the wording is, in essence, the same.
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Re: Paris

Post #94 by Retarder S » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:14 pm

You physically destroy ISIS, other groups mutate, rinse/repeat
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Re: Paris

Post #95 by Dog » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:25 pm

Tough war mongering is the de facto gut reaction and political message after these things.
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Re: Paris

Post #96 by jester » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:31 pm

Dog wrote:Sounds like they had an opportunity in Paris, because of local organization, targeted soft targets where crowds gathered (outside of football stadium, restaurants, concert venue, etc) and then tried to wrap it up in some odd form of crusade/prostitution justification.

Don't doubt they are anti-liberal, but you can't take the concert venue because it fits your narrative and disregard the stadium and random restaurants because it doesn't.

:dunno:


Propaganda of the deed.
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Re: Paris

Post #97 by Dr_Chimera » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:03 pm

Already seeing plenty of common ground between conservatives and liberals in the media about "the muslim problem", which is being singled out by some voices as the root cause of the attack.

Bill Maher invites Asra Nomani (the useful dark-skinned mouthpiece for imperialism) to his show where they both immediately agree that Islam is the problem. Breitbart news picks up the story immediately.
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Re: Paris

Post #98 by Craig » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:15 pm

EB is going to have to carry around a calculus textbook for like a week.
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Re: Paris

Post #99 by Whit Dickman » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:23 pm

Craig wrote:EB is going to have to carry around a calculus textbook for like a week.


I .. don't get it.
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Re: Paris

Post #100 by Mufasa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:26 pm

Probleme with ISIS, is that they are now eternal, even if you take back the land, they will be millions roaring the desert and facebook, ready to try another califate and make attacks in the west. I'd still prefer if we could take back the land from them.

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