Paris

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: Paris

Post #151 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:54 am

Mufasa wrote:The part I don't get is how did the guy manage to keep his passeport on himself? Was it planned? In what circumstance this idiot thought it was a good idea to keep his id on himself, the rest of the group tried really to erase their traces, but this dude kept his passeport in his pocket? I mean they are all trying really hard to make sure the police would have the hardest time to identify them, save the weird Syrian dude who arrived yesterday?

Pretty sure he made everything necessary in order to keep it intact after the explosion.

I think there's a good chance they wanted the world to know. They know that stoking anti-Muslim and anti-Arab xenophobia is their best ticket to new recruits. France is right to bomb Raqqa, but how the French (and Europeans writ large) respond to their Muslim population(s) could be disastrous.
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Re: Paris

Post #152 by The Bytown Boozer » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:25 am

Slick Nick wrote:Image


Fuck you.

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Re: Paris

Post #153 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:40 am

Image

This is the shit for which I live. Image
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Re: Paris

Post #154 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:46 am

Slick Nick wrote:let's say Qatar plans to build a pipeline


This is a fun game. Let's pretend to wonder aloud what member of HockeyBroads.com might stand to directly gain from a proposed pipeline from Qatar to Turkey, or a pipeline from Bruderheim to Kitimat, or the Sabine Liquefaction Expansion. Image
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Re: Paris

Post #155 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:51 am

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Re: Paris

Post #156 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:52 am

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Re: Paris

Post #157 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:53 am

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Re: Paris

Post #158 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:53 am

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Re: Paris

Post #159 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:07 am

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
embracedbias wrote:They apparently were attempting to target liberal and progressive parts of Paris. They're trying to provoke a culture war and, to be sure, there is no compatibility between liberalism and Islamism.

So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.

Uh, no. The war (your term, not mine, but I'll indulge you) is over Muslims who are intellectually suspended between violent and non-violent interpretations of their faith, and/or emotionally suspended between rage and relative contentment. It is entirely possible for Muslims to reject western secular ideals without committing, abetting, or encouraging murder and/or torture.

My assumption is that contentment is more difficult if you live in a society (or are constantly exposed to societies) that has ideals that contradict your own.

But, anyway, it's beside the point. You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.
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Re: Paris

Post #160 by Retarder S » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:01 am

In reply to Mu's post, It's very possible that they wanted everyone to know where it came from. It's part of the glory.

And I agree with Bernie Bernbaum. It's very possible to develop hostility against a society that thoroughly contradicts your own ideals...

Some people just laugh at other people, some people murder other people.
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Re: Paris

Post #161 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:26 pm

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Re: Paris

Post #162 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:32 pm

embracedbias wrote:You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.


If the only onus on you is to show "relation" then you have an easy time. A lot of things are related.
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Re: Paris

Post #163 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:52 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
embracedbias wrote:You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.


If the only onus on you is to show "relation" then you have an easy time. A lot of things are related.


a lot of those ideas are directly related to Islam
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Re: Paris

Post #164 by Sturminator » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:01 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:How the US (and the French) flooded Syria with weapons (from 2012 and 2014):
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/world ... .html?_r=1
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/d ... CMP=twt_gu
http://www.france24.com/en/20140821-fra ... s-hollande

Because Assad had to go.

On the list of things which are not related: weapons in Syria / terrorist attacks in France.

If you're going to be a gadfly, doc, at least be a topical one.
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Re: Paris

Post #165 by Retarder S » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:18 pm

embracedbias wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:
embracedbias wrote:You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.


If the only onus on you is to show "relation" then you have an easy time. A lot of things are related.


a lot of those ideas are directly related to Islam


But the deeper issue is not the ideas itself, which are a platform to exhibit one's internal conflict and torn existence. It's more about the reason why these people find it so easy to subscribe to extreme ideologies...

Wars of ideas and all of the non-sense that ensues will never end until people realize and honestly admit to eachother why they're fighting for them. Something that wont happen before a whole lot of time and blood is shed.

"Some need the exhibition
And some have to know they tried
It's the chemical weapon
For the war that's raging on inside." - John Mayer
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Re: Paris

Post #166 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:38 pm

We just need to deploy an army of therapists to Syria & Iraq
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Re: Paris

Post #167 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:38 pm

embracedbias wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:
embracedbias wrote:You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.


If the only onus on you is to show "relation" then you have an easy time. A lot of things are related.


a lot of those ideas are directly related to Islam


Oooh, directly related.
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Re: Paris

Post #168 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:40 pm

But seriously, the "internal conflict" cannot be separated from the belief systems. The mind is far too complex for the compartmentalizing that you advocate.
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Re: Paris

Post #169 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:44 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:
embracedbias wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:
If the only onus on you is to show "relation" then you have an easy time. A lot of things are related.


a lot of those ideas are directly related to Islam


Oooh, directly related.


Can you give me some examples of ideas are and are not meaningfully "related" to Islam? I can't tell where the bar is.
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Re: Paris

Post #170 by Dr_Chimera » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:51 pm

I moved this conversation to another thread. Let's instead talk about how France's military deals with the Saudis and weapons funneling into Syria is unrelated to global terrorism.
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Re: Paris

Post #171 by PredsFan77 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:53 pm

and qatar's pipeline
CDX.NA.IG.9









[LEFT]Image[/LEFT]
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Re: Paris

Post #172 by Slick Nick » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:42 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:Fuck you.


Toi même bouzeur.

: )
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Re: Paris

Post #173 by edgar_dong » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:51 pm

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Re: Paris

Post #174 by MP » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:20 pm

Just nuke the middle east and make the oil sands profitable again... Sheesh.
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Re: Paris

Post #175 by Retarder S » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:06 pm

embracedbias wrote:But seriously, the "internal conflict" cannot be separated from the belief systems. The mind is far too complex for the compartmentalizing that you advocate.


I'm not advocating the disassociation of both factors, I just think there's more than religion to joining a terrorist group and killing unarmed civilians to put forward some sociopolitical/religious point, in the name of God.

The solution doesn't lie in only reforming the religion, but enforcing many other cultural values such as tolerance, sense of self, respect of opinion and diversity. Just better education in general. Y'know...the reason why many muslims strive in western societies.

Can we live in a world where radicalization and extreme ideologies is abolished? I don't think so. Believe in radical islam all you want, just dont join terrorist groups and kill innocent people.
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Re: Paris

Post #176 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:13 pm

embracedbias wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
embracedbias wrote:They apparently were attempting to target liberal and progressive parts of Paris. They're trying to provoke a culture war and, to be sure, there is no compatibility between liberalism and Islamism.

So what can liberal nations do? The war is over those Muslims who are stuck between western secular ideals and an identification with their faith and brethren. Maybe it's time we acknowledge that this is indeed a dilemma for many Muslims.

Uh, no. The war (your term, not mine, but I'll indulge you) is over Muslims who are intellectually suspended between violent and non-violent interpretations of their faith, and/or emotionally suspended between rage and relative contentment. It is entirely possible for Muslims to reject western secular ideals without committing, abetting, or encouraging murder and/or torture.

My assumption is that contentment is more difficult if you live in a society (or are constantly exposed to societies) that has ideals that contradict your own.

But, anyway, it's beside the point. You seem to acknowledge that it is in fact a "war" of ideas and that a lot of those ideas are related to Islam.


A few points:

  • I specifically said I don't agree with the term "war." I left it in because I didn't want to bother with a long-winded digression.
  • I do not believe the main struggle is over ideas. ISIS is not recruiting through intellectual rigor. They are recruiting by targeting and exploiting the outrage, resentment, and delusions of grandeur of marginalized young men.
  • To reframe, rage is the root cause and motivating factor, Islam is simply an accessible and readily available justification to act out on that rage. As many of the articles linked above show, most ISIS fighters do not particularly care about religion beyond its significance as a cultural marker and its ability to provide a framework and outlet for their anger.
  • If the West positions itself as fighting Islam instead of fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda specifically, we're fucked. That is the exact recipe for exacerbating this problem.
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Re: Paris

Post #177 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:39 pm

Retarder S wrote:
embracedbias wrote:But seriously, the "internal conflict" cannot be separated from the belief systems. The mind is far too complex for the compartmentalizing that you advocate.


I'm not advocating the disassociation of both factors, I just think there's more than religion to joining a terrorist group and killing unarmed civilians to put forward some sociopolitical/religious point, in the name of God.

The solution doesn't lie in only reforming the religion, but enforcing many other cultural values such as tolerance, sense of self, respect of opinion and diversity. Just better education in general. Y'know...the reason why many muslims strive in western societies.

Can we live in a world where radicalization and extreme ideologies is abolished? I don't think so. Believe in radical islam all you want, just dont join terrorist groups and kill innocent people.


I agree
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Re: Paris

Post #178 by senate » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:46 pm

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Re: Paris

Post #179 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:52 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:A few points:

  • I specifically said I don't agree with the term "war." I left it in because I didn't want to bother with a long-winded digression.
  • I do not believe the main struggle is over ideas. ISIS is not recruiting through intellectual rigor. They are recruiting by targeting and exploiting the outrage, resentment, and delusions of grandeur of marginalized young men.
  • To reframe, rage is the root cause and motivating factor, Islam is simply an accessible and readily available justification to act out on that rage. As many of the articles linked above show, most ISIS fighters do not particularly care about religion beyond its significance as a cultural marker and its ability to provide a framework and outlet for their anger.
  • If the West positions itself as fighting Islam instead of fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda specifically, we're fucked. That is the exact recipe for exacerbating this problem.


I wish we lived in a world that didn't have delusional and marginalized young men. Clearly, making everyone on the planet's life better would be great.

Acknowledging that there will be some marginalized young men for the foreseeable future, what can we do to prevent them from joining the dark side? Ideas. If Islam is accessible, it seems important for there to be an accessible alternative. Don't you think?
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Re: Paris

Post #180 by Slick Nick » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:41 pm

I wouldn't be too offended if the imams of shady mosques were to have their citizenship revoked and sent back to their charia paradises...maybe they could die for the cause instead of sending 15 year olds to do so.
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Re: Paris

Post #181 by Slick Nick » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:51 pm

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Re: Paris

Post #182 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:25 pm

embracedbias wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:A few points:

  • I specifically said I don't agree with the term "war." I left it in because I didn't want to bother with a long-winded digression.
  • I do not believe the main struggle is over ideas. ISIS is not recruiting through intellectual rigor. They are recruiting by targeting and exploiting the outrage, resentment, and delusions of grandeur of marginalized young men.
  • To reframe, rage is the root cause and motivating factor, Islam is simply an accessible and readily available justification to act out on that rage. As many of the articles linked above show, most ISIS fighters do not particularly care about religion beyond its significance as a cultural marker and its ability to provide a framework and outlet for their anger.
  • If the West positions itself as fighting Islam instead of fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda specifically, we're fucked. That is the exact recipe for exacerbating this problem.


I wish we lived in a world that didn't have delusional and marginalized young men. Clearly, making everyone on the planet's life better would be great.

Acknowledging that there will be some marginalized young men for the foreseeable future, what can we do to prevent them from joining the dark side? Ideas. If Islam is accessible, it seems important for there to be an accessible alternative. Don't you think?

  • Vocally and visibly announce solidarity with the vast majority of Muslims who are just as terrified of ISIS
  • Vocally and visibly denounce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment
  • Create social programs to improve living conditions in areas that have been economically depressed due to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab marginalization
  • Ensure that security crackdowns, if necessary, affect residents equally and do not unfairly persecute the Muslim/Arab population
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Re: Paris

Post #183 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:23 pm

Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
embracedbias wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:A few points:

  • I specifically said I don't agree with the term "war." I left it in because I didn't want to bother with a long-winded digression.
  • I do not believe the main struggle is over ideas. ISIS is not recruiting through intellectual rigor. They are recruiting by targeting and exploiting the outrage, resentment, and delusions of grandeur of marginalized young men.
  • To reframe, rage is the root cause and motivating factor, Islam is simply an accessible and readily available justification to act out on that rage. As many of the articles linked above show, most ISIS fighters do not particularly care about religion beyond its significance as a cultural marker and its ability to provide a framework and outlet for their anger.
  • If the West positions itself as fighting Islam instead of fighting ISIS and Al-Qaeda specifically, we're fucked. That is the exact recipe for exacerbating this problem.


I wish we lived in a world that didn't have delusional and marginalized young men. Clearly, making everyone on the planet's life better would be great.

Acknowledging that there will be some marginalized young men for the foreseeable future, what can we do to prevent them from joining the dark side? Ideas. If Islam is accessible, it seems important for there to be an accessible alternative. Don't you think?

  • Vocally and visibly announce solidarity with the vast majority of Muslims who are just as terrified of ISIS
  • Vocally and visibly denounce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment
  • Create social programs to improve living conditions in areas that have been economically depressed due to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab marginalization
  • Ensure that security crackdowns, if necessary, affect residents equally and do not unfairly persecute the Muslim/Arab population

I don't think i've seen any world leader talk on the issue and not try to say something about solidarity with Muslims. I'm guesssing that you also underestimate the extent of sympathy for ISIS (I'll try to find polls later)... depends what you mean by vast majority. If it were something like 95%, ISIS wouldn't be nearly as big an issue.

Social programs are a good idea. Doesn't solve the problem in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, saudi arabia, or africa. But it would help in Europe.

Do you think that a major motivating factor for ISIS is unjust security measures? I understand your point, but it seems so specific. Fair enough though.
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Re: Paris

Post #184 by Whit Dickman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:25 pm

I'm interested. What do you think about western military intervention in Syria?
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Re: Paris

Post #185 by Bernie Bernbaum » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:36 pm

embracedbias wrote:
Bernie Bernbaum wrote:
embracedbias wrote:
I wish we lived in a world that didn't have delusional and marginalized young men. Clearly, making everyone on the planet's life better would be great.

Acknowledging that there will be some marginalized young men for the foreseeable future, what can we do to prevent them from joining the dark side? Ideas. If Islam is accessible, it seems important for there to be an accessible alternative. Don't you think?

  • Vocally and visibly announce solidarity with the vast majority of Muslims who are just as terrified of ISIS
  • Vocally and visibly denounce anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment
  • Create social programs to improve living conditions in areas that have been economically depressed due to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab marginalization
  • Ensure that security crackdowns, if necessary, affect residents equally and do not unfairly persecute the Muslim/Arab population

I don't think i've seen any world leader talk on the issue and not try to say something about solidarity with Muslims. I'm guesssing that you also underestimate the extent of sympathy for ISIS (I'll try to find polls later)... depends what you mean by vast majority. If it were something like 95%, ISIS wouldn't be nearly as big an issue.

Social programs are a good idea. Doesn't solve the problem in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, saudi arabia, or africa. But it would help in Europe.

Do you think that a major motivating factor for ISIS is unjust security measures? I understand your point, but it seems so specific. Fair enough though.

W/r/t security measures, that is something that Muslims and those with Muslim heritage have, in my personal experience, cited as a major factor in their feeling like second class citizens. They feel their last name or faith has made them suspect in the eyes of the law and their fellow citizens. There are other things, of course, like trying to legislate against religious dress.

As for military intervention in Syria, fuck if I know. That's just a clusterfuck of awful. I will say, however, that I generally advocate for isolationism in military policy.
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Re: Paris

Post #186 by PPJ » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:09 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
embracedbias wrote:


I wonder what motivates Saudis to donate money.


I don't think it's necessarily "the Saudis" as a monolithic thing, but rather (edit: rich fucks) with particular sympathies in the context of complete lack of oversight.


Sort of like when Irish Americans funded the IRA, except bigger in scope.
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Re: Paris

Post #187 by Whit Dickman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:52 am

It's quite a dilemma. I know that Canada pulling out its jets is irrelevant and entirely symbolic. Have no opinion otherwise
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Re: Paris

Post #188 by AD » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:57 am

I think any course of conducts that takes us away from deposing Assad is playing right into ISIS' gameplan.
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Re: Paris

Post #189 by MP » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:11 am

So you're saying the ISIS gameplan wasn't to get everyone on Facebook to change their picture to the French flag?

Really, their game plan was to initiate a western retaliation against Islamic people. To drive the wedge between us and them. So basically they were successful, more bombing, political threats, and 'war' is only going to further their cause.

The real solution is foreign aid and disposing of any political opposition to such aid.
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Re: Paris

Post #190 by Retarder S » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:12 am

So is it accurate to say that radical islam is the vehicle and resentment and rage against the west/modern islam is the driver?
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Re: Paris

Post #191 by Slick Nick » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:27 am

AD wrote:I think any course of conducts that takes us away from deposing Assad is playing right into ISIS' gameplan.


Pretty sure Russia and al. are working on a plan to give Assad an honorable sortie.
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Re: Paris

Post #192 by AD » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:39 am

That's fine. But we have to empower the 3rd alternative in every country there. (I.e., not the dictators, not the Ikhwan\ISIS\AQ).
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Re: Paris

Post #193 by AD » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:13 pm

Figures you'd like the commie-feminists.
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Re: Paris

Post #194 by HS » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:17 pm

Has AD been arrested yet?
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Re: Paris

Post #195 by Whit Dickman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:16 pm

relevant to the exchange with PoM

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Re: Paris

Post #196 by Whit Dickman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:17 pm

dempsey_k wrote:
embracedbias wrote:It's quite a dilemma. I know that Canada pulling out its jets is irrelevant and entirely symbolic. Have no opinion otherwise


Canada is back to its historic norm of sanctimony first, undercover help elsewhere. Canada'll be training ISF & Pesh in greater numbers now.


Seems like a more reasonably strategy to me. Mmm, cake.
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Whit Dickman
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Re: Paris

Post #197 by Whit Dickman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:59 pm

there's this: http://anonymousmugwump.blogspot.co.uk/ ... -isis.html

I think the guy overemphasizes short term solutions, but at least he has sources
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jester
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Re: Paris

Post #198 by jester » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:20 pm

The argument about Myth #2 is the most confusing thing I've ever read ... and are we supposed to treat Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam as ... positive examples of use of military force? The reason people call it a political problem is that coercive force can bring about stability but not a solution. This is why you have the GOP folks that argue to this day that the Surge "worked." Sure, it worked to impose temporary stability ... that fell apart as soon as you brought down troops levels. I mean, no shit, the same was true two centuries ago with slave rebellions in the colonial world. So, are we talking military intervention or permanent occupation? If it's the former, then we need to talk about a politically stable solution ... if it's the latter, then yay empire.
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Whit Dickman
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Re: Paris

Post #199 by Whit Dickman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:21 pm

jester wrote:The argument about Myth #2 is the most confusing thing I've ever read ... and are we supposed to treat Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam as ... positive examples of use of military force? The reason people call it a political problem is that coercive force can bring about stability but not a solution. This is why you have the GOP folks that argue to this day that the Surge "worked." Sure, it worked to impose temporary stability ... that fell apart as soon as you brought down troops levels. I mean, no shit, the same was true two centuries ago with slave rebellions in the colonial world. So, are we talking military intervention or permanent occupation? If it's the former, then we need to talk about a politically stable solution ... if it's the latter, then yay empire.


Yes, well put. My sense is that the guy (have no idea who it is) is yay empire.
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Dr_Chimera
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Re: Paris

Post #200 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:55 pm

Image

United against terror. United against refugees.

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