L'après-Trump

[The Bytown Boozer]

An honest question.

[senate]

Stop anthropomorphizing Americans.

[MP]

Basically, the longer they put up with this, the more it'll become the norm.

[Shawnathan Horcoff]

Once they amend the gun laws the angry white children will be cured, and all will be well again. : )

[Dr_Chimera]

The key question is 'worse for who'?

Or is it 'for whom'?

[AD]

The only wrong answer in your poll is the ones Titties chose. Obvos.

[PredsFan77]

[chicpea]

The key question is 'worse for who'?

Or is it 'for whom'?

Jesus fuck, moreon. It's "For whom is it worse?"

[Dr_Chimera]

I am sick of this language.

[TittiesNBeer]

The only wrong answer in your poll is the ones Titties chose. Obvos.

We all thought shit was bad under W.Bush, Karl Rove and all their acolytes.

So then there was a huge swing to Obama.

Then now we see the swingback and its Trump, which makes W. and crew look good.

I'm thinking we just keep swinging further and further on the extremes.... next pres will be more progressive than obama was, then we swing back and we'll get someone ever crazier than Trump.

[AD]

Like I said.

[Dog]

Long term trends are impossible to predict, you idiots.

[Dog]

And I wouldn’t call the Trump admin worse than the GW Bush admin. Neocons fucked the world good with the Iraq war.

[chicpea]

And I wouldn’t call the Trump admin worse than the GW Bush admin. Neocons fucked the world good with the Iraq war.

It has been one year. One year. One year of non-stop carnival.

[AD]

Gotta disagree with Dog.

[Dog]

And I wouldn’t call the Trump admin worse than the GW Bush admin. Neocons fucked the world good with the Iraq war.

It has been one year. One year. One year of non-stop carnival.

Sure. It’s been chaos and it’s been folly, so far thought nothing nearly as impactful on world affairs as what the neocons did.

[Craig]

Yeah, so far Trump is too incompetent to kill as many people as Bush. I'm with dog.

[Dog]

Yeah, so far Trump is too incompetent to kill as many people as Bush. I'm with dog.

People killed, region in chaos, migrant crisis. It’s not all on the Iraq war, middle-east demographics probably bears as much blame, but the Iraq war is a prime contributor.

[jester]

And I wouldn’t call the Trump admin worse than the GW Bush admin. Neocons fucked the world good with the Iraq war.

W admin was a disaster, but it was also defined by 9/11. His time in office was not what he expected. Trump has been a gong show without a similar crisis.

[AD]

As usual, Craig and and Dog underestimate the long term impact of this administration on the weakening of the very fabric of democratic institutions and liberal ideals.

[PredsFan77]

thats just like your opinion, man

[Craig]

As usual, Craig and and Dog underestimate the long term impact of this administration on the weakening of the very fabric of democratic institutions and liberal ideals.

Bush passed the Patriot act and established the precedent for the president using executive orders to do whatever the fuck he wants.

The Republican party have been trampling those ideals so hard and for so long, it's part of the reason a guy like Trump can be successful. The only real difference with Trump is he does it so blatantly and clumsily that he actually gets push back. There real culprits in this area are Congress though, who have consistently been unable or unwilling to punish those who do these things.

[AD]

It's the ethos Craig. It's the mainstream nature of these attacks by Trump.

Even the Pubs don't like this.

[clawfirst]

The Rock vrs Stone Cold race for presidency in 2021 is going to be epic

[Craig]

It's the ethos Craig. It's the mainstream nature of these attacks by Trump.

Even the Pubs don't like this.

That's what I mean. Bush did a lot of the same stuff, just quietly and efficiently. Trump runs his mouth, which upsets people more but accomplishes less.

If there Pubs don't like it, they can impeach him. It's entirely on them.

[jester]

It's the ethos Craig. It's the mainstream nature of these attacks by Trump.

Even the Pubs don't like this.

That's what I mean. Bush did a lot of the same stuff, just quietly and efficiently. Trump runs his mouth, which upsets people more but accomplishes less.

If there Pubs don't like it, they can impeach him. It's entirely on them.

Not sure this is fair to Bush. He was a terrible POTUS, but not a transformative one with regards to political norms and culture. He certainly was POTUS during a period of time where the GOP became increasingly partisan and unwilling to compromise, but that had begun in response to Clinton and escalated under Obama.

[Craig]

Bush is the guy who decided a president doesn't need to talk to press, and can rule by edict through executive orders if Congress doesn't do what he wants. What else do you need?

[jester]

Bush is the guy who decided a president doesn't need to talk to press, and can rule by edict through executive orders if Congress doesn't do what he wants. What else do you need?

The President doesn't need to talk to press. They do so for political reasons, not because there is some hard and fast rule. Prior to the mid 20th c. there was very little direct interaction, and nothing like the press secretary briefings.

FDR issued 3,728 executive orders (and attempted to pack the courts!). Bill Clinton issued 364. Bush? 291.

He was a bad president, but he wasn't abnormal.

[AD]

Bush did not condone popular revolt against the courts, the media and rule of law nor did any of his administration openly espouse xenophobia, racism and protectionism.

That administration was bad. But it wasn't "ok now I actually have to get easily defensible land" bad.

[Dog]

I think we are talking about different things. Impact on governance and democratic institutions and impact on world affairs. I’m don’t have much difficulty conceding that Trump has been worst on the former, but believe the Iraq war has had by far a greater impact on the world than anything Trump has done. I don’t see the Iraq war as a consequence of 9/11. It’s a consequence of neocon ideology. The ideology in power under GW Bush.

[AD]

Trump, on the foreign affairs side, has single handedly legitimized Russia, Turkey, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia as actual players in world affairs (each in a sphere) when the last 5 presidents before that has succeeded in marginalizing them when the US would intervene.

He has also just handed China the mantle of world governance instead of slowing that process in any way.

[jester]

Trump, on the foreign affairs side, has single handedly legitimized Russia, Turkey, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia as actual players in world affairs (each in a sphere) when the last 5 presidents before that has succeeded in marginalizing them when the US would intervene.

He has also just handed China the mantle of world governance instead of slowing that process in any way.

What's happening in Asia right now may define the 21st century geopolitical landscape. Of course, Trump is not alone on that one. Bernie was equally stupid, and helped normalize Trump on that front.

[jester]

I think we are talking about different things. Impact on governance and democratic institutions and impact on world affairs. I’m don’t have much difficulty conceding that Trump has been worst on the former, but believe the Iraq war has had by far a greater impact on the world than anything Trump has done. I don’t see the Iraq war as a consequence of 9/11. It’s a consequence of neocon ideology. The ideology in power under GW Bush.

Without 9/11, the Iraq War does not happen. Full stop. Obviously, Bush had multiple people in his admin with an axe to grind on Iraq, but there is no way he gets the necessary support to embark on that conflict without 9/11.

It's important to remember that the Bush that ran for office emphasized domestic policy, "compassionate conservatism," etc. His term in office is a text book case of the best laid plans of mice and men.

[Dog]

I’ve always understood 9/11 as the opportunity for neocons to carry out their ideology (to basically use military power to ‘americanize’ the world), not as an event that shaped the ideology.

[jester]

I’ve always understood 9/11 as the opportunity for neocons to carry out their ideology (to basically use military power to ‘americanize’ the world), not as an event that shaped the ideology.

Sure, but he still needed legislative backing (and public support) and they aren't all neoconservatives.

[PredsFan77]

[Dog]

I’ve always understood 9/11 as the opportunity for neocons to carry out their ideology (to basically use military power to ‘americanize’ the world), not as an event that shaped the ideology.

Sure, but he still needed legislative backing (and public support) and they aren't all neoconservatives.

I’m not sure I follow the point. Neocons had a specific ideology. They held very large sway during GW Bush’s first term. They used an extraordinarily opportunity to quickly advance their agenda. It was catastrophic. Why does this somehow ‘disqualify’ the Iraq war as due to neocons in office?

An admin should be judged by the way it reacts to major events. But we’re not evenntalking about that. We’re talking about an event permitting an administration to enact its agenda. We’re basically saying they needed ‘favorable’ conditions to carry out their agenda. How/why would that excuse them?

[jester]

I’ve always understood 9/11 as the opportunity for neocons to carry out their ideology (to basically use military power to ‘americanize’ the world), not as an event that shaped the ideology.

Sure, but he still needed legislative backing (and public support) and they aren't all neoconservatives.

I’m not sure I follow the point. Neocons had a specific ideology. They held very large sway during GW Bush’s first term. They used an extraordinarily opportunity to quickly advance their agenda. It was catastrophic. Why does this somehow ‘disqualify’ the Iraq war as due to neocons in office?

An admin should be judged by the way it reacts to major events. But we’re not evenntalking about that. We’re talking about an event permitting an administration to enact its agenda. We’re basically saying they needed ‘favorable’ conditions to carry out their agenda. How/why would that excuse them?

9/11 *empowered* those actors. And, yes, an admin should be judged on how it responds to an event, but the reaction to 9/11 was pervasive across the political spectrum. Without 9/11, the Iraq War doesn't happen. Without 9/11, the Patriot Act, etc. doesn't happen. It's fine to say they handled it poorly, but the response to 9/11 was widespread political hysteria and paranoia. It's a hinge of immense importance and influence.

[PredsFan77]

[Dog]

wut?

[MP]

I think it's pretty ckear the artist is saying NASCAR was behind 9-11.

[senate]

wut?

[Dog]

[clawfirst]

Cleaning a flag with a rag is the most perfect symbolism for the murrican idiocy that is politics.

[PredsFan77]

wut?