Gamer Gate (d_k is a self-loathing misandrist, but at least he's not Ernie)

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Post #351 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:23 pm

clawfirst wrote:how so? seems like the easy thing to say. I work in an industry that is 99% male due to the physical demands and the basic physiology of humans. How would they make better products? Products that are mostly markets and made for 13 year old boys?


The best products are products people make for themselves. In the tech industry it's known as eating your own dog food.

Your industry (construction, right?) has a lot of people who are female, just not the labourers. I believe the large majority of interior designers are female, for instance.
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Post #352 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:25 pm

that would be part of the one percent, yes.
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Post #353 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:36 pm

Even some of the physical jobs in the industry might benefit from more women. I'd guess there are about a half dozen individual qualities that go together to make up a good carpenter. If a woman isn't as physically strong but is excellent at all the other skills, would she not be better than the majority of male carpenters?

If it's just crushing rocks with sledgehammers, yeah, women aren't going to be suited for the job. But most jobs are more complicated than that. A female interior designer who really got the carpentry aspect of the business would probably be pretty good to work with, no? Maybe a female carpenter who had a good conceptual idea for interior design would be good for an interior designer to work with? Lots of different roles in every industry where tons of testosterone isn't always the best thing to have.
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Post #354 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:39 pm

Tech companies that have more women in them tend to outperform their peers in terms of annualized returns. It might just be that the women in the field prefer to work for the better companies, but it also might be that the diversity in the workforce is a positive thing. Women tend to have different views on and approaches to problems.

I'm less convinced that would apply to construction in the same way, but for office work like IT, definitely.
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Post #355 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:40 pm

I didn't say there aren't any or that the ones who are there are no good. They just don't exist regularly.

But that's not the point. they can either do it or not. How does it improve the end product. The answer is, none of the decisions that make a better end product are in the control of the PEOPLE at that level.

And God damn do I hate designers. Had one once say they could open up a bay window into floor space....

And of course I could, but do you want to drop 20g on 3sq'. She was terrible, because she was terrible and lacked training and experience. not because she was a woman.
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Post #356 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:43 pm

Craig wrote:Tech companies that have more women in them tend to outperform their peers in terms of annualized returns. It might just be that the women in the field prefer to work for the better companies, but it also might be that the diversity in the workforce is a positive thing. Women tend to have different views on and approaches to problems.

I'm less convinced that would apply to construction in the same way, but for office work like IT, definitely.


It makes the men perform better(this is entirely a construction thing). you put one young woman on a broom and suddenly men become stronger and faster
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Post #357 by senate » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:44 pm

AD wrote:I can't wait for the Toyota Yaris of video games!


Image
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Post #358 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:46 pm

clawfirst wrote:I didn't say there aren't any or that the ones who are there are no good. They just don't exist regularly.

But that's not the point. they can either do it or not. How does it improve the end product. The answer is, none of the decisions that make a better end product are in the control of the PEOPLE at that level.

And God damn do I hate designers. Had one once say they could open up a bay window into floor space....

And of course I could, but do you want to drop 20g on 3sq'. She was terrible, because she was terrible and lacked training and experience. not because she was a woman.


Yeah, obviously the lack of strength is going to be hard to overcome, so there would be a lot less female carpenters even if the workplace was super welcoming to women. And I'm not going to pretend I really know that much about your industry.
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Post #359 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:47 pm

meh, its 100% what you think it is.
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Post #360 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:48 pm

I'ma go tell K she should sweep the basement or rake leaves tomorrow.
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Post #361 by Ernie » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:50 pm

Anyways, I guess my basic point is that women bring different skills and viewpoints to a workplace and I think men often don't understand the benefits that they bring because they are men and can only see problems from a particular perspective.
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Post #362 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:23 pm

Craig wrote:I'ma go tell K she should sweep the basement or rake leaves tomorrow.


Alright alright alright
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Post #363 by AD » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:34 pm

clawfirst wrote:Alright alright alright


You don't have to take that from him. Come to Mtl. I'll treat you well.
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Post #364 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:36 pm

I don't blame Craig for his outbursts. my equalish hasn't been showing up or even responding. I should probably pay him.
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Post #365 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:43 pm

That was an outburst?
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Post #366 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:43 pm

I thought I was just objectifying my wife. :colbert:
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Post #367 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:46 pm

It can be both.
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Post #368 by Craig » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:47 pm

All I'm saying is if you guys work harder digging holes in sub-zero temps AND I get my yard raked, it's kinda a win-win.
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Post #369 by clawfirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:55 pm

I have a sinus infection and that will still be done before noon.
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Post #370 by Bernie Bernbaum » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:34 am

Ernie wrote:Anyways, I guess my basic point is that women bring different skills and viewpoints to a workplace and I think men often don't understand the benefits that they bring because they are men and can only see problems from a particular perspective.


The fact that fields and companies resistant women also cut their talent pools in half might also have something to do with it.
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Post #371 by Roughneck » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:30 am

Ernie wrote:No, that's not really it. This isn't some awkward nerd thing. Most of the time it's intelligent, well spoken people who think that rules are below them and they can to do whatever they want. They're landing a probe on a fucking comet, who are you to question what they're wearing? The message is that women should just man up and get on board because we just have no time for bullshit.

It's not exactly a new attitude, I suppose, but where it's occurring is somewhere new and opposite to what people's pre-conceptions of what the tech industry is.


I'd say these people are just a bunch of awkward nerds who have needed to deal with the public in the 10+ years the project has been in operation. Taylor however is part of this group that is trying to embrace this 'rocker-nerd' style (for lack of a better term) that is seen through most STEM fields now, but particularly physics and software.

Similar to how tech companies are trying to shed the corporate culture because it doesn't matter what you wear so long as the job gets done. For some that isn't enough and you need to actively go against any concept of a corporate dress and appearance code. So to get back to Taylor you have a guy who wore shorts and a shirt that was likely not picked with malice towards women, but because it was the most 'non-corporate' shirt he had that could also show off his tats and show us that 'scientists can be cool too.' Instead we see the big awareness gap between people, even leaders, in the field to one of the more pressing issues in STEM.
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Post #372 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:23 pm

Aunt Muriel wrote:The fact that fields and companies resistant women also cut their talent pools in half might also have something to do with it.


I don't think we'd see 50/50 even if the work environment was perfect for women. The job requires a singular focus on solving problems and I think men are often more interested in that kind of work. But yeah, there could and should be many more women than there are.

Roughneck wrote:I'd say these people are just a bunch of awkward nerds who have needed to deal with the public in the 10+ years the project has been in operation. Taylor however is part of this group that is trying to embrace this 'rocker-nerd' style (for lack of a better term) that is seen through most STEM fields now, but particularly physics and software.

Similar to how tech companies are trying to shed the corporate culture because it doesn't matter what you wear so long as the job gets done. For some that isn't enough and you need to actively go against any concept of a corporate dress and appearance code. So to get back to Taylor you have a guy who wore shorts and a shirt that was likely not picked with malice towards women, but because it was the most 'non-corporate' shirt he had that could also show off his tats and show us that 'scientists can be cool too.' Instead we see the big awareness gap between people, even leaders, in the field to one of the more pressing issues in STEM.


Yeah, totally, usually it's not intentional misogyny but instead just a lack of awareness and the confirmation bias that comes with a large group of men who have just being around men throughout most of their careers. Google actually tries to train its employees to be aware of hidden biases etc: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/technology/exposing-hidden-biases-at-google-to-improve-diversity.html?_r=0
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Post #373 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:32 pm

Shush now, the adults are talking.
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Post #374 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:38 pm

dempsey_k wrote:FTFY


Have you ever actually had a professional job in your life? Sit down, boy.
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Post #375 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:46 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Nope. I've checked my privilege: don't need one. Those are for the slovenly idiots like yourself who come from low stock.


hahaha. I just did a poll and 90% of women think you're a tool. Shush now, the adults are talking.
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Post #376 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:59 pm

dempsey_k wrote:It's apparently an adult thing to you to propose women are too mentally deficient to code, so yeah adult in the sense that you've bought in to sexism while managing to bargain on it enough psychologically to convince yourself you're not sexist.


That's not what I said. I said that men are often more interested in that type of work. There are plenty of industries where the opposite is true. The challenge is to acknowledge this but still make it inviting for anyone who has the ability or interest in the type of work to jump in.

Anyone who thinks that men and women are exactly the same is fucking stupid. Men and women should be able to do whatever the fuck they want to, but that doesn't mean they're going to make the same choices. Indeed I said in my earlier posts that it's the differences in women that make them very useful in STEM fields. But the work is still the work and a lot of it is going to be done individually.
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Post #377 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:15 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Yeah I wonder why they make those choices when they face intense pressure, insults, and harassment as kids and students to not do certain things that are the domain of men, using your reasonable manly men logic.


Well, that accounts for much of the discrepancy and that's what Craig and I have said needs to change. But you have no fucking idea what the work actually is, and you're not a woman, so basically you have absolutely no insight into this. All you know is how to repeat some talking points.

You're like that kid in the front of the class who won't shut up and thinks they're smarter than the professor while everyone else just rolls their eyes.
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Post #378 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:21 pm

My super butch lesbo aunt is a veterinarian so I don't know about that.
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Post #379 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:15 pm

You sure have an active imagination, dempsey. I'll give you that.
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Post #380 by Craig » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:16 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Eeehhhnnnn noooooooo, you were pretty specific about the sexist status quo being valid because of some freedom of choice horseshit. You're tossing dudebro compromises out that sound reasonable to your immediate circle of dudebros. Your sense of fairness has changed in the course of this thread, through anger and attacks on me, but it's changed, even in the course of the last few hours. Glad at least your misogyny is malleable, encouraging for other fedora fuck boys who come from your circumstance.


Your interpretation of what he said is very different from mine.
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Post #381 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:22 pm

Craig wrote:Your interpretation of what he said is very different from mine.


The hilarious thing is that he was the one who was dismissive that the guy wearing the shirt was evidence of institutional sexism while the people who are familiar with the industry recognized it immediately.
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Post #382 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:52 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Yes it is hilarious that you can't read.


Clearly not. And i hav hrd tyme riting to.
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Post #383 by Craig » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:10 pm

dempsey_k wrote:Not surprising in the least tbh.


So your position when faced with a person who says "that's not what I meant" and another person who says "that's not what I thought he meant" is to say "yeah, you're both wrong"?
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Post #384 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:12 pm

I've run into some weird people in the Internet, gotta say d_k is right up there.
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Post #385 by clawfirst » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:11 pm

Finally. The spirit of broads.

Now dig deep and really try and hurt each other
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Post #386 by Roughneck » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:36 pm

clawfirst wrote:Finally. The spirit of broads.

Now dig deep and really try and hurt each other


Or....kiss?
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Post #387 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:20 pm

dempsey_k wrote:You're one of the plainest and most common, which is why any person who thought about it for a second would want to commit suicide.


lol. Maybe work on your insults a bit. I'm re-writing a marketing email right now that was originally written by someone who is ESL and even they make more sense than you do.
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Post #388 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:23 pm

Still don't really get it. I guess I am that stupid. Maybe you can make it even easier?
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Post #389 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:25 pm

The Bytown Boozer wrote:So Ernie is a sexist?

Gotta say I'm not exactly surprised that a Liberal Party of Canada cheerleader such as Ernest has no respect for womyn considering what we've learned over these past few weeks. :abstinence:


LPC supporter what? Hilariously enough I've voted Green for the last few elections.
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Post #390 by AD » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:43 pm

I haven't read a single post in the last 7 pages but I'm with DK.
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Post #391 by Ernie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:53 pm

AD wrote:I haven't read a single post in the last 7 pages but I'm with DK.


You should read some of it, pretty good conversation until he accused me of being a misogynist again.
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Post #392 by clawfirst » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:00 am

no it really wasn't.

though dk taking the moral high ground and then taking it to the gutter makes it a win for Ernie by my definitions of interwebs.
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Post #393 by clawfirst » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:01 am

by default, but a win is a win. shut er down
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Post #394 by AD » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:44 am

Ernie wrote:You should read some of it, pretty good conversation until he accused me of being a misogynist again.


Look, I don't think you're misogynist, hell I can't even spell misogynist.. but I've made my position in the thread very clear. DK is right. And if he says you are then who am I to contradict that!

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