IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1601 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:27 pm

Dog wrote:... the intolerant, exclusionary extremes.


What you're describing here is mainstream, organized religion.

The kind where we should distrust "infidels". The kind where we try to tell people what bathrooms they should use. The kind that believes that God promised only us, and our like-minded brethren, a certain batch of land. It's all very much exclusionary, Dog.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1602 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:
Dog wrote:... the intolerant, exclusionary extremes.


What you're describing here is mainstream, organized religion.

The kind where we should distrust "infidels". The kind where we try to tell people what bathrooms they should use. The kind that believes that God promised only us, and our like-minded brethren, a certain batch of land. It's all very much exclusionary, Dog.


Nah, mainstream is wishy washy.

Then where the fuck are these people? They certainly seem to be absent whenever the church trots out its dogmatic discourse.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1603 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:48 pm

Dog wrote:
The Bytown Boozer wrote:
Dog wrote:
Nah, mainstream is wishy washy.

Then where the fuck are these people? They certainly seem to be absent whenever the church trots out its dogmatic discourse.


They are the ones not in the news?

:dunno:

I agree that the news would probably not receive an immense boost in ratings by airing the grievances of moderate Lutherans, but you'd think that if these views really did represent the mainstream of religion there would at least be some visible pushback against the ultra-Conservative factions of the modern church.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1604 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:49 pm

Ugh... and don't even get me started on sports fans...... :paulrus:
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1605 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:06 pm

The reality is that most religious people are simply not interested in hearing what a secular heathen such as you or I have to say on this matter. We are excluded from any discourse on religious tolerance because we are from the dreaded "outgroup".
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1606 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:08 pm

I've tried to have this conversation with religious people and at a certain point you either need to change the topic of the conversation or you'll have to get ready for what will no doubt end in a shouting match where no one is listening to one another.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1607 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:39 pm

But religion is just a reflection of us.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1608 by AD » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:41 pm

Wait
.. my last comment was directed at something Boozy said last page. Didn't realise you gents are now on to sports fans.

Carry on.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1609 by AD » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:57 am

It was!
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1610 by AD » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:57 am

And they are!
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1611 by vf » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:22 pm

So popular thoughts on the Haredi destroying Israel through religious stupidity?
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1612 by PredsFan77 » Mon May 08, 2017 5:55 pm

Image
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1613 by PredsFan77 » Mon May 08, 2017 5:56 pm

CDX.NA.IG.9



















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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1614 by Whit Dickman » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:56 pm

So it's been a couple of years and I have some things to say.

I probably oversold the influence of Islamic doctrine, but continue to hold basically the same position regarding the ills of religious dogmatism. Of course, religious dogmatism is much further down the list of important problems that we are facing than it was even 2 years ago. [I'll add that those who might have disagreed with my argument about the Islamic religion holding some blame for the behaviour of the minority of bad Muslims are likely to make the exact same argument now when it comes to white nationalism. I.e., the vast majority of white nationalists don't murder anyone, but the ideology is still relevant to the outliers and therefore requires sustained criticism.]

At any rate, legitimate Islamophobia is now certainly a more significant problem than Islamic religious dogmatism. I did not anticipate this and I feel bad about it. I don't know what role the "criticism" of Islam (from people like Sam Harris, etc.) played in all this - certainly less than Trump and the rise of nationalism - but I am not happy about my association with this sort of thing. (I was always pro-immigration... it helps people escape theocracies and benefit from secularism)

In short, we are at a point where criticizing Islam (reminder: not Muslims, but Islam) probably does more damage than good. It emboldens racists and, anyway, probably cannot be done in such a way that it would be easily separable from racism for the target audience of the criticism. I freely admit that this might have been the case 2-3 years ago as well, but I just didn't see it. So, mea culpa.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1615 by AD » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:07 pm

If you go back to the thread, you'll see that most here (probably not on Twitter and Reddit, but here) equated all dogmatism and blamed all narrow views (whether political, social, religious, etc.) for certain behaviours... and were generally simply pointing out that blaming/singling out Islam was the problematic part of your argument.

But good job on that post.
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1616 by PredsFan77 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:57 pm

we'll all look back at the events of this year when world war 3 is discussed
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Re: IS this discussion done now? Broads discuss the root cause of evil.

Post #1617 by Whit Dickman » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:15 pm

AD wrote:If you go back to the thread, you'll see that most here (probably not on Twitter and Reddit, but here) equated all dogmatism and blamed all narrow views (whether political, social, religious, etc.) for certain behaviours... and were generally simply pointing out that blaming/singling out Islam was the problematic part of your argument.

But good job on that post.


Okay, so I guess another analogy would be: Are we justified in now singling out nationalism given recent events?

I would say yes. Just as it was justified to be singling out Islam when ISIS was throwing gay people from the tops of buildings. Naturally, as I've intimated, the complication here is that the "singling out" of Islam is related to the rise of actual Islamophobia.

So, it's not that things can't be singled out. But that it was (in this narrow case) predictable that singling out Islam would embolden racists.


Perhaps that's what you're saying.

Okay, fair enough.
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Post #1618 by Dr_Chimera » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:22 pm

I don't get the analogy between Islam and white nationalism at all. Is this what they're teaching over at Yale these days? That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Ben Shapiro are both equally bad?
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Post #1619 by mayoradamwest » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:00 pm

Extremists from both groups is the comparison I usually see :dunno:
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Post #1620 by AD » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:57 am

Whit Dickman wrote:
AD wrote:If you go back to the thread, you'll see that most here (probably not on Twitter and Reddit, but here) equated all dogmatism and blamed all narrow views (whether political, social, religious, etc.) for certain behaviours... and were generally simply pointing out that blaming/singling out Islam was the problematic part of your argument.

But good job on that post.


Okay, so I guess another analogy would be: Are we justified in now singling out nationalism given recent events?

I would say yes. Just as it was justified to be singling out Islam when ISIS was throwing gay people from the tops of buildings. Naturally, as I've intimated, the complication here is that the "singling out" of Islam is related to the rise of actual Islamophobia.

So, it's not that things can't be singled out. But that it was (in this narrow case) predictable that singling out Islam would embolden racists.


Perhaps that's what you're saying.

Okay, fair enough.


I mean, I don't think its fair to say that white nationalism is somehow the worst thing ever or singling it out as unique.

The general assumption is that people suck, are stupid, and fucked up and some will get drawn into whatever extremism gives them purpose at whatever time or whatever extremism is accepted within a community, whatever gets them validation as humans, yadda yadda.

And that the tenets of the -ism in question are pretty secondary.

Hence, going from one current problematic -ism to another to another misses the actual issue, usually a human feeling of disenfranchisement and injustice coupled with some internal struggle sprinkled with assholishness and criminality.

And that is especially problematic if the -ism you're pointing to as problematic is generally and historically identical to other -isms that don't produce the violent outcomes. Example, Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism are so identical and similar, singling one of them as producing violent and extremist behaviour is the wrongness we argued.

Nationalism, like religious thought, has its issues, but when its basically be proud of your territory, language and sing songs a few times a year, its fine.
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Post #1621 by Whit Dickman » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:59 pm

Dr_Chimera wrote:I don't get the analogy between Islam and white nationalism at all. Is this what they're teaching over at Yale these days? That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Ben Shapiro are both equally bad?


The analogy isn't between the ideologies. The idea is that people are happy to "blame" white nationalism as an ideology (that is, the connection between their ideology and various bad behaviors is readily apparent), but when it comes to religions (and Islam in particular) the ideology (ideologies) gets a pass.

But that's not how human behavior works. People pick up beliefs throughout their lives, and these beliefs have impacts on what they do in the world. Particularly those beliefs that they internalize in the key formative years of their lives.

AD wrote:I mean, I don't think its fair to say that white nationalism is somehow the worst thing ever or singling it out as unique.

The general assumption is that people suck, are stupid, and fucked up and some will get drawn into whatever extremism gives them purpose at whatever time or whatever extremism is accepted within a community, whatever gets them validation as humans, yadda yadda.

And that the tenets of the -ism in question are pretty secondary.

Hence, going from one current problematic -ism to another to another misses the actual issue, usually a human feeling of disenfranchisement and injustice coupled with some internal struggle sprinkled with assholishness and criminality.

And that is especially problematic if the -ism you're pointing to as problematic is generally and historically identical to other -isms that don't produce the violent outcomes. Example, Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism are so identical and similar, singling one of them as producing violent and extremist behaviour is the wrongness we argued.

Nationalism, like religious thought, has its issues, but when its basically be proud of your territory, language and sing songs a few times a year, its fine.


I'm sorry AD, but you're just wrong.

People do not just choose among beliefs in the way that you imply. The things we are taught (and believe) have impacts on what we do. Even the most rational and fully developed adult cannot really interpret novel claims ("-isms") outside the lens of the things they already believe (the "-isms" that have been handed to them, in whole or in part).

Let's consider a more straightforward context. Have you noticed how everyone always likes (primarily) music from their era? This is a context where absolutely nothing is at stake. People's preferences about what sounds good is, in relative terms, almost entirely arbitrary. People could, in theory, listen to music from any time or any culture. There is no stigma attached to doing so (unlike for religion), and they have easy access to a great wealth of music. But the vast majority nonetheless retain their preferences for music that they listened to during their formative years.

If the formation of musical preferences over time is so easily influenced by what was learned at a given point in time, imagine the influence of being exposed to an entire belief system? And I'm not talking about the exceptions - white nationalism and all that - I'm talking about how my brain works and your brain works and how Chim's brain works and how Jester's brain... well, nevermind Jester.

And, not just that, but you're suggesting that people's disenfranchisement has nothing to do with their having adopted disenfranchised belief systems. By my reading, the primary reason behind the new rise in white nationalism is that whites feel like they are becoming more disenfranchised ("not allowed to make racist jokes anymore... and, look, black kids are getting into college now"). The disenfranchisement isn't coherent unless the beliefs are already in place (in this context, that "whites" are "us" and "everyone else" is "them" - simplifying things of course).

Mental health is a relevant factor, but one cannot talk about these things without considering the things that people actually believe. The brain just doesn't work that way, AD.
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Post #1622 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:13 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:Extremists from both groups is the comparison I usually see :dunno:


White nationalists are already extremists.
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Post #1623 by Dr_Chimera » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:14 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:The analogy isn't between the ideologies. The idea is that people are happy to "blame" white nationalism as an ideology (that is, the connection between their ideology and various bad behaviors is readily apparent), but when it comes to religions (and Islam in particular) the ideology (ideologies) gets a pass.


That's because white nationalism is bad and Islam isn't.

Imagine Dickman in another couple of years: "So it's been a couple of years and I have some things to say."
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Post #1624 by AD » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:49 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:I don't get the analogy between Islam and white nationalism at all. Is this what they're teaching over at Yale these days? That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Ben Shapiro are both equally bad?


The analogy isn't between the ideologies. The idea is that people are happy to "blame" white nationalism as an ideology (that is, the connection between their ideology and various bad behaviors is readily apparent), but when it comes to religions (and Islam in particular) the ideology (ideologies) gets a pass.

But that's not how human behavior works. People pick up beliefs throughout their lives, and these beliefs have impacts on what they do in the world. Particularly those beliefs that they internalize in the key formative years of their lives.

AD wrote:I mean, I don't think its fair to say that white nationalism is somehow the worst thing ever or singling it out as unique.

The general assumption is that people suck, are stupid, and fucked up and some will get drawn into whatever extremism gives them purpose at whatever time or whatever extremism is accepted within a community, whatever gets them validation as humans, yadda yadda.

And that the tenets of the -ism in question are pretty secondary.

Hence, going from one current problematic -ism to another to another misses the actual issue, usually a human feeling of disenfranchisement and injustice coupled with some internal struggle sprinkled with assholishness and criminality.

And that is especially problematic if the -ism you're pointing to as problematic is generally and historically identical to other -isms that don't produce the violent outcomes. Example, Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism are so identical and similar, singling one of them as producing violent and extremist behaviour is the wrongness we argued.

Nationalism, like religious thought, has its issues, but when its basically be proud of your territory, language and sing songs a few times a year, its fine.


I'm sorry AD, but you're just wrong.

People do not just choose among beliefs in the way that you imply. The things we are taught (and believe) have impacts on what we do. Even the most rational and fully developed adult cannot really interpret novel claims ("-isms") outside the lens of the things they already believe (the "-isms" that have been handed to them, in whole or in part).

Let's consider a more straightforward context. Have you noticed how everyone always likes (primarily) music from their era? This is a context where absolutely nothing is at stake. People's preferences about what sounds good is, in relative terms, almost entirely arbitrary. People could, in theory, listen to music from any time or any culture. There is no stigma attached to doing so (unlike for religion), and they have easy access to a great wealth of music. But the vast majority nonetheless retain their preferences for music that they listened to during their formative years.

If the formation of musical preferences over time is so easily influenced by what was learned at a given point in time, imagine the influence of being exposed to an entire belief system? And I'm not talking about the exceptions - white nationalism and all that - I'm talking about how my brain works and your brain works and how Chim's brain works and how Jester's brain... well, nevermind Jester.

And, not just that, but you're suggesting that people's disenfranchisement has nothing to do with their having adopted disenfranchised belief systems. By my reading, the primary reason behind the new rise in white nationalism is that whites feel like they are becoming more disenfranchised ("not allowed to make racist jokes anymore... and, look, black kids are getting into college now"). The disenfranchisement isn't coherent unless the beliefs are already in place (in this context, that "whites" are "us" and "everyone else" is "them" - simplifying things of course).

Mental health is a relevant factor, but one cannot talk about these things without considering the things that people actually believe. The brain just doesn't work that way, AD.


I didn't say any if what you say I'm wrong about!

What is the difference between the monotheistic Abrahamic religions, in their tenets, that make one worst than the others?
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Post #1625 by clawfirst » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:05 pm

Adhering to said tenants...
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Post #1626 by AD » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:31 pm

clawfirst wrote:Adhering to said tenants...


Exactly.
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Post #1627 by jester » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:03 am

I appreciate the shot at me. I mean, who would have thought nationalism might be mobilized malevolently? Shocking (and entirely predictable) development, that one.

Going back two years, when your rhetoric and Trump's rhetoric were aligned, that probably should have given some pause.
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Post #1628 by jester » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:14 am

AD wrote:What is the difference between the monotheistic Abrahamic religions, in their tenets, that make one worst than the others?


What's always been dumb about this is that in some future scenario it's possible to imagine militarized veganism. Humans have been slaughtering each other long enough that we should have some humility in prescribing the ills of man as somehow unique to anything. The more important question is what tempers those impulses, and the secularism argument has always had numerous flaws. One of the most obvious? Nationalism, of which race/ethnicity-based nationalism has been the most dangerous.

Hopefully Europe doesn't implode before we get the current iteration reined in.
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Post #1629 by Whit Dickman » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:40 am

Haha there is no way that I'm getting sucked back into this conversation. I said my bit. Peace out mofos
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Post #1630 by Whit Dickman » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:46 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:
Whit Dickman wrote:The analogy isn't between the ideologies. The idea is that people are happy to "blame" white nationalism as an ideology (that is, the connection between their ideology and various bad behaviors is readily apparent), but when it comes to religions (and Islam in particular) the ideology (ideologies) gets a pass.


That's because white nationalism is bad and Islam isn't.

Imagine Dickman in another couple of years: "So it's been a couple of years and I have some things to say."


Okay one more thing and then I'm out:



K now I'm out
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Post #1631 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:05 am

Whit is going to be shocked when he learns about the shit Christians did.
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Post #1632 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:24 am

Yale University George W. Bush school of Islamophobia Studies presents Whit Dickman's paper "Why the people we're bombing are to blame for terrorism."
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Post #1633 by Craig » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:04 am

Dr_Chimera wrote:Whit is going to be shocked when he learns about the shit Christians did.


He knows, he just thinks Christianity has outgrown it. Islam hasn't, so it deserves special attention.
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Post #1634 by jester » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:47 am

Craig wrote:
Dr_Chimera wrote:Whit is going to be shocked when he learns about the shit Christians did.


He knows, he just thinks Christianity has outgrown it. Islam hasn't, so it deserves special attention.


Meh, he's repeatedly displayed his animus largely derives from contemporary news reports (which have been repeatedly shown to have an anti-Muslim bias) and not much else. He isn't alone, of course, lots of people don't really take stock of WWI and WWII, and what would likely have happened if not for nukes. Western exceptionalism, of which this is very much a part, is excellent at ignoring its warts.

But, hey, at least he recognizes Nazis are a problem now! (Note: this required contemporary news coverage/events.)
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Post #1635 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:26 pm

Clearly I've not read enough of this thread.

(good)

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