Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #301 by Thomas Malthus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:04 am

Moving forward we obviously need to improve the right side and we have a few ways to do it, some more appealing than others. We have pieces that are valuable that we could trade, but do we really have the depth now to do that with JvR, Bozak, and Leo all leaving? We could sign Carlson or Green this year or try for Doughty and Karlsson next year, but that leaves us with a dead year with uncertainty or more of the same on the right side. We could sign a lefty and have both Dermott and Mo play their off sides, but that likely won't help our weak breakouts and Mo and Dermott might struggle. We could simply wait for Tim the Enchanter.

Not sure what options I like. They all seem a bit meh.

Mo and Jake are similar players, though historically Jake has been better away from the puck according to the numbers but we aren't talking about them if Andersen puts up even league average numbers.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #302 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:07 am

Curry Rage wrote:You're still begging the question of what effect context has. As a young defenseman, Rielly played on some of the worst defensive clubs in the league measured in GA. Again, cause or effect? One guy doesn't get hemmed in the zone.


Let's say that his play is the effect of playing tough competition, than shouldn't it stand to reason that he shouldn't be playing against said competition? Anyways this is veering off topic, I like Rielly and I like Gardiner, I think we need to do a better job of complimenting them with better players on defense as opposed to shipping them off.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #303 by Curry Rage » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:10 am

No, that's circular. We still haven't accounted for 4/5 other dudes.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #304 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:12 am

Curry Rage wrote:You're still begging the question of what effect context has. As a young defenseman, Rielly played on some of the worst defensive clubs in the league measured in GA. Again, cause or effect? One guy doesn't get hemmed in the zone. Rielly is one of the best D we have at moving the puck out of the zone, which stops the team being hemmed in.

This year, the team finally jumped up the standings to be respectable in GA. And while Rielly's individual numbers might be awful, I seem to recall he played some of the worst minutes in the league. I'm not shocked the puck went in the net a lot with him on the ice. Every team gets scored on. If you're the guy the coach chooses to put out there to defend the best scorers, it's going to happen to you more than other guys simply because of averages.


I don't put much value in raw goals against because that could be the result of many factors outside Rielly's control, but he gives up alot of really high quality shots against, and its been a pretty consistent problem throughout his career. There are other elite players who have the same problem like Josi, Burns and Karlsson. It's up to the Leafs to pair him with someone who can better compliment him and not exacerbate matters like Hainsey.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #305 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:15 am

Curry Rage wrote:No, that's circular. We still haven't accounted for 4/5 other dudes.


Burch posted something earlier this year that showed that Rielly had a negative impact on almost all of his partners over the years with respect to xGA, I'll try to find it. The flip side is that we are also way better in terms of shot generation with him on the ice.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #306 by paulster » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:24 am

MFR is awesome you guys are whack.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #307 by cawbber » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:40 am

Thomas Malthus wrote:Moving forward we obviously need to improve the right side and we have a few ways to do it, some more appealing than others. We have pieces that are valuable that we could trade, but do we really have the depth now to do that with JvR, Bozak, and Leo all leaving? We could sign Carlson or Green this year or try for Doughty and Karlsson next year, but that leaves us with a dead year with uncertainty or more of the same on the right side. We could sign a lefty and have both Dermott and Mo play their off sides, but that likely won't help our weak breakouts and Mo and Dermott might struggle. We could simply wait for Tim the Enchanter.

Not sure what options I like. They all seem a bit meh.

Mo and Jake are similar players, though historically Jake has been better away from the puck according to the numbers but we aren't talking about them if Andersen puts up even league average numbers.

and Andersen puts up better numbers if he isn't shellacked by 35-40 shots a game.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #308 by cawbber » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:41 am

Philthy Thrillz wrote:Never been much of a fan of Gards. And its not about last game. Get rid of him for someone with a brain. Let Mo be #1 horse and build a D core that can play in there own end.

I also think this blowing the zone and the constantly throwing grenades through the neutral zone isn't playing to Gards strengths. He's an average passeer at best. He should be skating the puck everytime. We need a Kaberle level passer with this system.

I miss Kabs.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #309 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:44 am

paulster wrote:MFR is awesome you guys are whack.


Who said he wasn't?
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #310 by paulster » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:06 pm

AGENT ZERO wrote:
paulster wrote:MFR is awesome you guys are whack.


Who said he wasn't?


You, probably.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #311 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:35 pm

paulster wrote:
AGENT ZERO wrote:
paulster wrote:MFR is awesome you guys are whack.


Who said he wasn't?


You, probably.


Shut up Paul
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #312 by flâ·neur » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:39 pm

Team showed heart to take it to 7. I'm positive we'll be seeing playoff hockey in Toronto for years to come. Bettmans rigging it so Ogre can win one more.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #313 by Transplanted Caper » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:17 pm

A few thoughts in the light of day.

1. This team isn't perfect, but it's very good. 7th overall on the season, and because of the playoff format, they had to play the 4th best team. Those are the breaks, but it does show we shouldn't overreact (and isn't it nice to have faith we actually won't?) and to something drastic. Now, I thought they chased Boston most of the series, and are clearly in the 2nd tier of teams, but growth from the kids, and adding to those assets should hopefully move us forward.

2. The blueline needs help, big time. The right side is a mess, and so much of one that teams can focus on the left side, which, while full of good players lacks a strong defensive presence. Rielly, Gardiner, and Dermott all rely on their puck moving ability, but need a stable partner who can play well defensively and at least be good enough to move the puck themselves so as to force the opposing team to give the aforementioned three some more room out there. It'll be interesting to see how hard Toronto goes after Carlson in the summer. As much as Gardiner frustrates, I just don't know what the solution is. He's infuriating at times, but you trade him and you're spending time looking for a replacement. Given his cap hit, I'd lean towards keeping him. He's a better option at that price than going into FA or trading assets for a replacement (although trade for an upgrade involving Jake is something worth looking into). Hopefully there's some bounce back in Zaitsev, b/c otherwise the right side is going to leak like a sieve and force players not capable of it of logging too many minutes.

3. As good as McBackup was this year, either Babcock needs to trust him more or we need to find a backup goalie he can trust. Not sure Freddie can carry a massive workload. As good as he was for a few months this year, he was gassed by the end and wasn't consistent enough in the playoffs.

4. I think watching Kapanen and Johnsson you have to be pretty confident that losing JVR isn't going to be a body blow to this team.

5. Babcock needs to bend a bit on the PK, and stop throwing the same d-men out there when it isn't working. That said, a solution to the problem is adding to the d core and getting him better players.

All in all...it's fixable, or at the very least, improvable. We have Matthews/Nylander/Hyman/Kadri/Marner/Marleau in the Top 6 and Kapanen/Johnsson/Brown/Leivo after that, so we're insulated from the loss of 3 FA forwards (4 if you include Plekanec) as well as possible. Improve the D, give Freddie some rest, stop being stubborn about the PK and hope for the best.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #314 by clawfirst » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:36 pm

As much as i hate Jake for twice being the cause of our collapses with 3 goal leads in the third against boston ....

I dont know how to finish this post.


Skilled. Dumb. Retard endurance.

Hes still a top 100-120 dman in the world but god damn i hate his game
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #315 by clawfirst » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:39 pm

If he isnt psychologically harmed by the worst of our fanbase attacking him for just being what he is i'd keep him. But i think its over.

And no thats not irony. Im not following him on whatever media he uses and asking him to commit suicide.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #316 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:53 pm

Claw defending Jake (kind of)... Someone hold me I'm scared.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #317 by clawfirst » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:57 pm

Well no, i hate him. But i understand the value he has. And he will be able to play until hes 45. Not like hes gonna get hurt not touching any one
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #318 by Philthy Thrillz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:59 pm

We just need someone better than him. Push him down to a lesser role. Shelter him a bit more. That would do wonders for his game and the Leafs D core.

Someone fast and can pass the puck. Hows Lilegren looking? He could be Jakes replacement if he booms.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #319 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:07 pm

You guys are focusing on the wrong things, we need to fix the RS not replace Jake. If you can move Gardiner for an upgrade at RD fine, but who is doing that?
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #320 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Gardiner scored 50 this past year, just find him a better partner and sit back and enjoy.
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Post #321 by mooseOAK » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:21 pm

He’s supposed to be the better partner by now.
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Post #322 by clawfirst » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:00 pm

Im not falling for it as a way to fix jake but zaitz is really not good.

So i guess i sorta kinda agree with az.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #323 by clawfirst » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:05 pm

The handedness bias babcock has makes me crazy though. It makes sense at the highest lvl of hockey that being weak side playing strong side is bad but historically 70% of players are lh. The best lhd who make the show often play weak side when in minor hockey.

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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #324 by Philthy Thrillz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:22 pm

He played Hainsey all year with Mo. If it meant as much as its portrayed, Babs would have insisted on the 2nd option that was a RD last July.

They coveted Hainsey's recent vet cup win over handedness to play in the top four.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #325 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:47 pm

clawfirst wrote:The handedness bias babcock has makes me crazy though. It makes sense at the highest lvl of hockey that being weak side playing strong side is bad but historically 70% of players are lh. The best lhd who make the show often play weak side when in minor hockey.

Sometimes you give yourself a stranger


Could not agree more
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #326 by AGENT ZERO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:47 pm

Philthy Thrillz wrote:He played Hainsey all year with Mo. If it meant as much as its portrayed, Babs would have insisted on the 2nd option that was a RD last July.

They coveted Hainsey's recent vet cup win over handedness to play in the top four.


It doesn't matter what side Hainsey plays on, he can't pass on his forehand or backhand.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #327 by Philthy Thrillz » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:47 am

AGENT ZERO wrote:
Philthy Thrillz wrote:He played Hainsey all year with Mo. If it meant as much as its portrayed, Babs would have insisted on the 2nd option that was a RD last July.

They coveted Hainsey's recent vet cup win over handedness to play in the top four.


It doesn't matter what side Hainsey plays on, he can't pass on his forehand or backhand.



That wasn't my point at all. Babcock had two lefties on the top pair all year.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #328 by stoney » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:59 am

Gardiner And Rielly (moreso Gards) play with partners who can't move the puck with them. Zaitsev gets the puck and fires a too-hard pass back, or rims it out to no one. Hainsey seems more inclined to shoot it up the middle, but still not an effective puck mover.

Dermott is a rookie, but with RHD experience, we never saw him get some time beside Gardiner to see what the hell two puck-talented D could do to get us out of the zone.

I know alot of you hate Gardiner, but there were 10+ times in the first 6 games where you could hear Jake yelling for a pass back from Zaitsev to keep control of the puck only to see it iced/ripped to their defense at the far blue line. It is hard to resist not clearing the zone, but some players are aware of their surroundings a half step ahead, Zaitsev doesn't seem to have that ability.

One last thing. Jake shit the bed in game 7 and he knows it. But fuck, if Freddie stops DeBrusk while Jake is laying him out, that would have been a VERY different moment. He lost a bit of the inside on him, but still recovered, made a physical play to try and set a tone and DeBrusk slipped in a very defendable goal. He could have used only his stick to get to that puck, I guess he thought his goalie would have made a save...
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #329 by paulster » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:26 am

The slapper from the point should've been stopped as well.

But, the more I think about it - the Leafs dominated the play for maaaaybe 30 minutes the entire series. Sad to say but Boston earned it. I just hope they get booted out of the 2nd round in 4 games.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #330 by stoney » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:49 am

paulster wrote:The slapper from the point should've been stopped as well.

But, the more I think about it - the Leafs dominated the play for maaaaybe 30 minutes the entire series. Sad to say but Boston earned it. I just hope they get booted out of the 2nd round in 4 games.


Boston, their best line especially, taught a pretty strong lesson on what effort and desire can do to affect a game. The Bergeron line doesn't lose many 50-50 battles.

Vegas' entire team plays the same way.

If we got that effort (nearly) every shift from our team, that's a contender. Right now, the Nylander/JVR/etc fly-by forechecks are useless and pointless. If you aren't even going to throw a soft breeze at a defender in their own end, why waste the energy to skate in there? Stop and make it hard for them to break out.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #331 by Thomas Malthus » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:36 am

I want this team playing the style of hockey they played with the tank team. That team was super aggressive on the forecheck, made short and quick passes to exit the zonem and had good puck support up the ice. Hell, for the most part they played similar to that last year, This year they were way too passive. In the offensive zone too. Where was that "total hockey" stuff from last year? Last year we were wave after wave crashing on opposing teams, this year it was more like splashes.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #332 by Whit Dickman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:10 pm

I still haven't really watched this game. Not even the highlights. I was in a pub in connecticut during the game (it was on the TV) and I was paying about as much attention as I could. My intention was to rewatch the game at a more convenient time. I still have not mustered the courage to do it. I'm a giant pussy. Or maybe I'm rationally avoiding being pissed off. Maybe both.
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #333 by LeafOfBread » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:28 pm

Whit Dickman wrote:I still haven't really watched this game. Not even the highlights. I was in a pub in connecticut during the game (it was on the TV) and I was paying about as much attention as I could. My intention was to rewatch the game at a more convenient time. I still have not mustered the courage to do it. I'm a giant pussy. Or maybe I'm rationally avoiding being pissed off. Maybe both.

I do the same, have zero desire to rewatch big losses
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Re: Game 7: Your Toronto Maple Leafs v. Bahston Broons | Just Win Baby

Post #334 by AGENT ZERO » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:21 am

Ditto, I still havent watched one highlight of the game 7 choke a fee years ago. I turn everytime they replay it.

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