Karlsson to San Jose

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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #51 by Hossa » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:12 pm

Awful, awful, awful trade. I might have to take a break from this team for a while.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #52 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:14 pm

If you thought Dorion's press conference was bad, you should listen to his TEAM1200 interview.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #53 by mayoradamwest » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:26 pm

Hossa wrote:Awful, awful, awful trade. I might have to take a break from this team for a while.


At least Jeff Loria wanted to chase away fans, this... This is special.


You know who this has to be really hard on though? That guy who give him a kidney. That's gotta be tough...
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #54 by Hossa » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:50 pm

I can't get over how bad this trade is.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #55 by TGR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:30 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
Hossa wrote:Awful, awful, awful trade. I might have to take a break from this team for a while.


At least Jeff Loria wanted to chase away fans, this... This is special.


You know who this has to be really hard on though? That guy who give him a kidney. That's gotta be tough...


I thought it was a liver?

Maybe he should have gave Melnyk his heart instead.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #56 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:49 pm

TGR wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:
Hossa wrote:Awful, awful, awful trade. I might have to take a break from this team for a while.


At least Jeff Loria wanted to chase away fans, this... This is special.


You know who this has to be really hard on though? That guy who give him a kidney. That's gotta be tough...


I thought it was a liver?

Maybe he should have gave Melnyk his heart instead.


It was part of his liver and, lucky for that fan, livers are the only organ that grow back.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #57 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:07 pm

I can understand the logic behind the rebuild, but if you can't get fair value, you gotta pony up and pay your franchise player and wait, not sell for a low ball best offer. Fuck it all to hell, in all seriousness, I don't think I'll ever support this team again at least not to the same level (especially with my old Jets doing everything right).
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #58 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 pm

I don't understand why Karlsson had to be moved because his pending UFA status would be distraction when the Senators are keeping (for now at least) similar distractions in Stone and Duchene.

And a distraction from what? Losing all the time? An empty arena? Missing out on Hughes?

Maybe management didn't want a lame duck generational defenceman taking away ice time from Chris Wideman and Ben Harpur.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #59 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 pm

I'm guessing they were worried he'd tear his Achilles during the team physical and he'd walk as a UFA... :facepalm:
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #60 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:44 pm

Imagine the shit offers Dorion must had to sift through if this was 'acceptable' one...
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #61 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:56 pm

Really though, if I'm a fan of the 29 teams I'm asking how did we not beat that offer?
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #62 by Boring Choice #2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:57 pm

Who says that they didn't?
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #63 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:05 pm

MP wrote:Really though, if I'm a fan of the 29 teams I'm asking how did we not beat that offer?


No one else offered Brady Tkachuk's best friend and friendship is the most valuable asset of them all.

(For those that missed it, TSN1200 asked Dorion what the Senators liked about Norris and Dorion actually started with him Tkachuk's best friend)
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #64 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:08 pm

And let's shit on Dorion some more:

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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #65 by senate » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 pm

Ok, just a little more shitting.

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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #66 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:31 pm

The Sens might have to tarp off section in the 100's this season...The Sens make Michael Scott look like good management.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #67 by MP » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:49 pm

All I got to say is my admiration for B. Murray is at an all time high. The fact that he was able keep this team respectable during his tenure is becoming more amazing the further down the toilet the Sens go.

RIP Bryan (if that's possible given the current state of affairs).
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #68 by ColinM » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:50 pm

The hardest part of this isn't so much that they traded Karlsson it's the fact they got such a crappy return. I would hoped for at least one 20 to 22 year old blue chip prospect. At best we have a couple minor leaguers and San Jose's version of Pageau and Ceci. It's questionable if even they will be around in 2021.

Anyway the season is a lost cause before it starts and it will likely stay that way for as long as Melynk is in charge.

On the upside I still think Montreal will have a higher draft pick than us, if for no other reason then that they will want to tank this year.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #69 by Ricard_Persson » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:52 pm

I know nothing of young players but it sounds like the return is horrendous. Of course it always sounds terrible when the better player is gone the other way. But this sounds bad. I don’t like Hossas reaction. He said he left folks.

Instead of “six assets” I’d rather two half karlssons. I feel bad for the kids coming in from SJ. They’ll forever be haunted by this deal and play their best hockey of their careers after they leave the organization. It’s a curse for them.

The deal looks so bad from the time they made it. Like at the last minute. What weakeness.they can talk about a circus atmosphere having Karlsson around, but I do think they now will have a worse circus to contend with all season. Fans have really soured.

Lastly, can you name five other nhl owners? I can’t name three because we never hear about them. We shouldn’t hear about them. Melnyk hasn’t been able to run any of his businesses and this one is the most public failure. He can’t help himself. He will sink this ship for sure but I don’t think he needs to sell like many do. I’d say this is a break even team and probably doesn’t cost him a cent a year. He cries poor and I would too, but they ain’t a huge money loss and gene is still filthy rich. Maybe not mega rich anymore, but I believe he really could own this team until he dies.

He may just get run out of town though. That may be the only hope. This season is going to be ugly and it won’t be a break even season. This is going to be a real money loss.

I’d argue Karlsson actually pays for himself when you add up his infuence. They’re going to lose his generated income this year and it will finally be measurable.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #70 by ColinM » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:52 pm

MP wrote:All I got to say is my admiration for B. Murray is at an all time high. The fact that he was able keep this team respectable during his tenure is becoming more amazing the further down the toilet the Sens go.

RIP Bryan (if that's possible given the current state of affairs).


A few years ago on another board I called BM average at best. I've completely reconsidered that position. You can tell a lot about a GMs worth after they leave an organization. So much as gone wrong that it likely did take legitimate talent to become average.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #71 by ColinM » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:54 pm

I feel like the Sens are headed for a decade similar to what Buffalo and Carolina have each experienced since about 2010.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #72 by Ricard_Persson » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:56 pm

Can you imagine the stories Bryan Murray would have? I’m sure close family knows some doozies regarding gene, but damn it’s sad we’ll never get the rundown on some behind the scenes insanity.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #73 by TGR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:33 pm

I am sick to my stomach. Why does this continue to happen?
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #74 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:36 pm

Brady Tkachuk was also a terrible draft pick. Hopefully this season's tickets will be the cheapest in the club's history.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #75 by TGR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:39 pm

What if... the Sens start the season 8-1.

?!?!?!
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #76 by Germz » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:59 pm

They traded Karlsson one day after NHL.tv automatically renewed my single-team subscription.

So I'll be one of the 18 people watching this season. Gotta try to get my money's worth.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #77 by Germz » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Seriously though, I can only hope that today goes down as the worst day in franchise history, because that will mean this story won't end in relocation.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #78 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:44 pm

Pierre Dorion looks like a down-on-his-luck door-to-door sewing machine salesman.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #79 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:14 am

Dorion is the Dobby of the hockey world and Melnyk’s puppet who only has the job because anyone else would require autonomy as part of the contract.

I’m happy that Merkeley wasn’t included in the deal because a kid with that much growing up to do would be fucked in this organization.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #80 by BlackRedGold » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:19 am

Best result is if Melnyk is burned at the stake before the home opener, new ownership takes over, the front office is cleaned out and Karlsson returns next June.

How can you start a season with that defence? You have one guy who has yet to play a full season, Ceci (for whatever he is) and a whole whack of third pairing guys? Who the fuck is going to mentor the young guys they may have coming up some day? Maybe they'll be able to find a waiver wire or trade a second rounder for someone. But then Dorion is running things, so no. This is the worst defence they've iced in over 20 years. And we can't even say, well, at least we're getting a great draft pick in June because it is fucking gone.

Dorion lied to us about Karlsson for six months. Fuck, burn him at the stake too. People should spit in their fucking faces if they dare show them in the city.

People who give Melnyk money should be publicly shamed. Sponsors boycotted. TSN subscriptions should be cancelled.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #81 by Thomas Malthus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:27 am

The 67s might have better attendance than the Sens this year.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #82 by Hossa » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:18 am

Having had a night to sleep on it, both the big picture of how they handled this and the small box of the specific return, really are just horrible. It's easy to shit on Melnyk, and no doubt that he's a huge part of the problem, but many teams have had bad owners. When this team was bankrupt 15 years ago, we were still a top team because we were run intelligently. And while the absence of an owner may be better than the one we have, Dorion is also accountable for the decisions he makes and the things he communicates. I truly want to believe that this organization can be successful without ownership change - because Melnyk doesn't appear to be going anywhere - and for that to happen we need to be extremely well managed. All available evidence suggests Dorion lacks the capacity to do that.

Big picture, Dorion still has yet to offer a coherent explanation for what happened with Karlsson and why he put himself in this situation. Brent Wallace's question is spot on - if you're saying this was the plan in February, why did you offer him a contract in July. He has also yet to provide any clarity on why we went big on Duchene mid-season, only to decide on a rebuild weeks later. His answers are incoherent and borderline insulting to intelligent fans, and until he finds a way to transparently communicate to the fanbase, he will be and should be viewed with contempt. I honestly do not know what the full story may be - it sure looks like they made a non-offer to Karlsson in July for some unknown reason (buy themselves time?), but why they handled it this way and how the Duchene decision fits I really don't know. I hope they are able to sign Duchene and Stone, because after two more trades for pennies on the dollar, I don't know if they would ever be able to dig themselves out of this.

Small box, what an awful trade. We got substantially less for Karlsson than we gave up for Duchene, despite deciding to move on from EK when he had a year and a half left on his deal. The only possible way to view this return as a success is if you measure it against the Tavares scenario of him walking (or the Josh Donaldson of him getting hurt). But it's an incredibly low upside return - no 2019 first rounder, no top prospect. Norris is probably the best asset in the deal, I like him as a prospect, but he's in the Colin White range, with probably better hands and less production. Dorion selling him as Tkachuk's friend is embarrassing. Tierney's a useful third liner we did not need. Balcers has skill, but in Dorion's own words he's a possible diamond in the rough. San Jose didn't even qualify DeMelo. All in, we made a trade with a team with one of the weakest prospect pools in the league and without a guaranteed first rounder this year, and somehow didn't even get their best young asset (Timo Meier).

It's impossible to know whether there were better offers out there, but Dorion has already made one trade with San Jose this summer where we know, for a fact, he could have done better. I appreciated him being asked about the Hoffman deal on the radio, and to hear him response that the pick from San Jose could end up better than the one from Florida was cringe inducing. It's the same line he used when we gave up a second with Zibanejad and got a seventh back - that the seventh could end up the better player. To me, either Dorion doesn't understand the concept of value, or he genuinely thinks the fans are stupid. Self-inflicted wounds and own goals all over the place.

Frankly, I don't live in Ottawa anymore and have lots of entry points to enjoy hockey. The Sens will always be my team, but after this I am just not sure I can invest in an organization run this poorly. Dorion absurdly asking fans to trust they know what they're doing shows a stunning lack of awareness and humility. A rebuild may even be the right thing, but how could you possibly believe Melnyk and Dorion are up to the task.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #83 by ColinM » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:48 am

It's interesting to compare how Dorion handled the Karlsson trade versus how Murray handled the Jason Spezza trade. At least in BM's case I don't think he ever tried to BS the fanbase even though the return on Spezza was likely going to be lower than expected. I also never got the impression that BM was Melynk's puppet. Anyone else have anything to add?
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #84 by MP » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:12 pm

This trade needed more Nick Paul...
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #85 by MP » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:14 pm

Also Spezza compared to his peers wasn't in Karlsson's orbit.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #86 by shredz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:42 pm

Listening to Dorion, he totally fucked this up. I bet the other GMs just waited him out. Deals like this don't usually happen in the middle of September.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #87 by Fruity Pebbles » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:50 pm

Hossa wrote:.


Hasn't the league also progressed to earlier and earlier UFA since the lockout? I'd imagine it's easier to look good when you keep players longer on cheaper contracts they can't force out of as easily as today.

I mostly agree though.

I wonder what happens to this team if the LeBreton deal falls through because right now it looks like they're not even going to try to compete. It looks like the team is being gutted to save money because there's going to be an upcoming sale over the next few years. Make money with the value of a franchise right in downtown Ottawa.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #88 by Dr_Chimera » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:58 pm

The most hilarious sales job for the Karlsson trade so far has been "Norris is friends with Tkachuk."
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #89 by Murphy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:07 pm

I saw David Byrne last night, so I don’t care about the sens anymore.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #90 by The Bytown Boozer » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:14 pm

TONIGHT: WE RIOT ON PALLADIUM DRIVE.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #91 by Germz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:42 pm

I'll be honest folks, my life is in such complete disarray right now this is barely affecting me.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #92 by shredz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:46 pm

Germz wrote:I'll be honest folks, my life is in such complete disarray right now this is barely affecting me.


I've been the same with the Devils except for last season. It was the first time in a while I gave a shit about hockey.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #93 by Ismellofhockey » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:38 pm

Germz wrote:I'll be honest folks, my life is in such complete disarray right now this is barely affecting me.


All out of weetabix this morning?



(apologies if you were being honest)
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #94 by Ismellofhockey » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 pm

The last straw for me was that this was planned.

They didn't trade the best player in franchise history because he forced their hand.
They didn't trade him because he was asking for too much money, or because they needed cash in return.
They didn't trade him because he asked to.

They actually sat down and thought this was the best course of action. They continued to believe this after letting go of their 1st round pick from this year. They continued to believe this after trading their leading goalscorer for a soft 3rd liner. They continued to believe this when the best return being offered them was a mystery gift bag from Ardène.

The best player in franchise history traded for scraps, because that was the plan all along. Deer gods.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #95 by mayoradamwest » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:51 pm

Ismellofhockey wrote:The last straw for me was that this was planned.

They didn't trade the best player in franchise history because he forced their hand.
They didn't trade him because he was asking for too much money, or because they needed cash in return.
They didn't trade him because he asked to.

They actually sat down and thought this was the best course of action. They continued to believe this after letting go of their 1st round pick from this year. They continued to believe this after trading their leading goalscorer for a soft 3rd liner. They continued to believe this when the best return being offered them was a mystery gift bag from Ardène.

The best player in franchise history traded for scraps, because that was the plan all along. Deer gods.


If it makes you feel better, i am pretty sure they are lying to the public pretty much constantly.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #96 by Ismellofhockey » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:58 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:
If it makes you feel better, i am pretty sure they are lying to the public pretty much constantly.


I would definitely prefer that to be the case. I'd still be done with Melnyk, but at least I could be relieved that there is some logic somewhere.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #97 by Fruity Pebbles » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:50 pm

Yeah... I don't believe for a second they planned this since February. This seems more like a "we'd rather seems like bad guys who are competent than bad guys because we're incompetent".
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #98 by Hossa » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:08 am

Fruity Pebbles wrote:Yeah... I don't believe for a second they planned this since February. This seems more like a "we'd rather seems like bad guys who are competent than bad guys because we're incompetent".


Unfortunately, they're also terrible at attempting to appear competent.

As Brent Wallace pointed out, they made Karlsson an offer in July, so the February plan doesn't add up on its own. Most likely July was a non-offer because they're idiots. There's a lie in there somewhere, but it's impossible to know which one it is amongst all the stupidity coming out of Dorion's mouth.
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #99 by Ricard_Persson » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:28 am

It's going to be tough to watch this year. The battle against fans and owner and add in a lowest look of a team in years. Maybe 25 years.

Attendance is going to be bad and no one is going to win. Ottawa is a tough market. Their fans always have a card full of excuses that they are happy to use, and this year there is many. It's going to look bad on paper when the rest of the league sees the numbers and we'll go through the relocation talk as usual from those on the outside which will be meant by stiff correction from the die-hards that won't buy tickets but will defend the team.

This will get ugly. Melnyk must see it that he is in this market and there are better markets elsewhere, but he'll never be allowed to get there. It would kind of suck if you weren't from the area when you think of it.

He's a billionaire, and I do think he's part stupid, but he can't be THAT stupid so he must have a game plan. Does he really want to own this team forever under these circumstances? He is not going broke, and he doesn't have to sell the team from a financial point of view so we can forget all of that rumour going around for the last two years. Him owning this team is the equivalent of us buying a used snowmobile. It's not a life or death cost. It's a toy.

So if I were him and he may very well be planning this. I'd sell as soon as the Lebreton deal is done. The franchise won't be worth more for a long time. He'll get out before all the problems arise from the development, which will be a nightmare in itself. And basically I think once the glow wears off the new rink and new owner, the attendance will drop back down to average at best.
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Thomas Malthus
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Re: Karlsson to San Jose

Post #100 by Thomas Malthus » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:01 pm

I think what really boggles my mind is that if rebuilding and trading Karlsson has been the plan since February (and this rebuilding plan likely includes moving on from Stone and Duchene) why the fuck would you not give the 2018 pick to Colorado for the draft in June?

(This is of course setting aside the idea that the entire team trajectory changed dramatically in the 4 months from making the play for Duchene and deciding on the Karlsson course of action and rebuild)
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything." - Ronald Coase
"[...]all models are wrong, some are useful." - George E. P. Box

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