OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6251 by Rogers Pancreas » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:53 pm

I took up a new position at the same old employer, and have been working between 11 and 13 hours a day, 6 a week. 7 on occasion. While being on call. The fun part is, being salary, our compensation isn't adjusted to account for the additional hours. It's just expected, the same way it's expected one individual replace two seniors with over 30 years of experience.



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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6252 by FlyHigh » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:29 am

40 hour workweek is another benefit that the Silent Generation and Boomers got to enjoy and then took away from the rest of us.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6253 by Craig » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:56 am

FlyHigh wrote:40 hour workweek is another benefit that the Silent Generation and Boomers got to enjoy and then took away from the rest of us.


That's really not true at all. Both those generations worked more than we do.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6254 by vonbonds » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

I work less hours than I did a decade ago but my stress/anxiety has gone up tremendously though due to scrutiny and greater internal review.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6255 by Craig » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:01 am

Yeah, but now you can afford better alcohol, so it works out.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6256 by FlyHigh » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:59 pm

Craig wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:40 hour workweek is another benefit that the Silent Generation and Boomers got to enjoy and then took away from the rest of us.


That's really not true at all. Both those generations worked more than we do.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours


That chart (guessing you are looking at I.2) doesn't account for a gap between gig/retail/"blue collar" workers and the professional class. A lot of large employers (particularly temp agencies) have a pretty significant incentive to keep workers below 40 hours. I mean, there have been a ton of investigative pieces done about how miserable it is to work at Amazon fulfillment centers or etc. At the end of the day, those ppl are working 40 (max, if they are lucky) and don't have much, if any, predictability on their schedule from week to week.

On the other hand, the professional class has more stable employment and makes a good living wage, but works well over 40 hours a week and is never free from work. How many white-collar professionals are comfortable getting a work email on Saturday and not responding till Monday morning? My guess would be few-to-none.

On some level, that's an oversimplification and good jobs do exist, but honestly, how many stable six-figure jobs do you think are out there that require 40-50 hours a week?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93364&page=1

There's also the obvious point that Americans work much harder than citizens of other "first-world" countries for a standard of living that's generally lower.

Not trying to derail a "how's everyone's summer going?" chain into an "inter-generational warfare is a massive problem" debate, but seeing stories like RP's and others, it's hard not to get annoyed.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6257 by Craig » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 pm

Averages don't lie, your generation works on average fewer hours than your parents and grandparents.

I'm all on board with the sentiment that Americans work longer than they should and don't get the standard of living out of it that they ought to. I'm also on board with the idea that different classes in the workforce are treated differently.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6258 by CantSeeColors » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:42 pm

An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6259 by Kilgore Trout » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:53 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.


Biglaw’s on like a 168 hr work week.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6260 by FlyHigh » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:07 pm

Haha nah we actually get 7-9 AM off every other Sunday. NYC biglaw is its own beast, I lateraled a while ago to a different city and have been rediscovering life since then. Even here though, a lot of clients are still quite responsive on weekends, particularly the higher up the totem pole you go.

I actually respect the biglaw contract to some degree and wasn't thinking of biglaw when I made the initial comment. You may not have much of a life in biglaw, but the perks and etc. are pretty good. What frustrates me a lot is seeing buddies from school either (a) still struggling for something stable in their early 30s now (coming up on 10 years from graduation) or (b) that have decent jobs, but never see their kids/spouses.

That Europe/US bargaining point is pretty interesting, makes sense when you think about the difference in European/American outlooks generally.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6261 by Hovercraft » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:02 am

I'm jealous of countries that are trying 4 day work weeks. That's the dream, but I can't complain too bad, I barely ever go over 35-40 hours in a normal week. Once in a while I need to go to work on a weekend but not very often.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6262 by CantSeeColors » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:56 pm

FlyHigh wrote:Haha nah we actually get 7-9 AM off every other Sunday. NYC biglaw is its own beast, I lateraled a while ago to a different city and have been rediscovering life since then. Even here though, a lot of clients are still quite responsive on weekends, particularly the higher up the totem pole you go.

I actually respect the biglaw contract to some degree and wasn't thinking of biglaw when I made the initial comment. You may not have much of a life in biglaw, but the perks and etc. are pretty good. What frustrates me a lot is seeing buddies from school either (a) still struggling for something stable in their early 30s now (coming up on 10 years from graduation) or (b) that have decent jobs, but never see their kids/spouses.

That Europe/US bargaining point is pretty interesting, makes sense when you think about the difference in European/American outlooks generally.

Which city are you in now, if you don't mind my asking? Being in an IP boutique, I see the world from an equally weird niche, so it does make me curious what other situations are like.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6263 by FlyHigh » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:39 pm

DC, had kind of kicked around the idea of moving back to Philly, but most firms in my practice area (public offerings/M&A/VC) don't really have a presence there. I get the impression that DC and Chicago are still demanding, but not as bad as NY (apparently Boston can also be pretty tough).

Boutique firm life seems pretty interesting, I've heard that the litigation ones can be nuts, but hopefully IP is a bit more manageable. My group here is pretty small (<10), so it's at least kind of a boutique feel perhaps, I like it a lot. Much more camaraderie and less fear.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6264 by Rogers Pancreas » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:10 pm

Hovercraft wrote:I'm jealous of countries that are trying 4 day work weeks. That's the dream, but I can't complain too bad, I barely ever go over 35-40 hours in a normal week. Once in a while I need to go to work on a weekend but not very often.

A company I was at tried it by working Monday through Thursday 9-7. The first week, we worked Friday 9-7 as well. The second week, we worked Friday 9-7 as well. The same for the third and the fourth. So, what started out a great idea turned into a fifty hour work week. As a salary worker then, it was less than cool.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6265 by Kilgore Trout » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:20 pm

E-Mail and especially mobile e-mail, for all of its benefits, was a pretty shitty invention for service professionals and other salaried workers. There's no escape.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6266 by CantSeeColors » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:11 am

FlyHigh wrote:DC, had kind of kicked around the idea of moving back to Philly, but most firms in my practice area (public offerings/M&A/VC) don't really have a presence there. I get the impression that DC and Chicago are still demanding, but not as bad as NY (apparently Boston can also be pretty tough).

Boutique firm life seems pretty interesting, I've heard that the litigation ones can be nuts, but hopefully IP is a bit more manageable. My group here is pretty small (<10), so it's at least kind of a boutique feel perhaps, I like it a lot. Much more camaraderie and less fear.

I haven't lived on the other side of the fence, but I'm digging the vibe where I am. I do litigation at what is primarily a patent prosecution firm, so I get the benefit of the group's mentality being to work reasonable hours, but my work is far more interesting than theirs. I make half what I'd make in biglaw, but it's still enough. I feel your pain on Philly being a tiny market for my specialty though - there's probably no more than a dozen people in boutiques in Philly who do what I do.

KT: my solution to that is to have separate phones. I put the work phone away at like 6:30 or 7:00 and don't pick it up again until I head to the office the next day. It takes buy-in from your superiors to get away with that, but I found that even the ones who work at weird hours don't actually expect a response until the next day.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6267 by jester » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:32 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.


I'd be curious about that, but suspect there's a large degree of apples and oranges in the comparison given the very different social, economic, etc. structures on the ground. Perhaps more importantly, a more raw form of capitalist ideology survived the first half of the 20th c. in the US, whereas the rise of democratic socialist parties occurred in Europe dating to the late 19th c. And following WWII the old aristocratic, capitalist, free market, etc. parties had lost considerable influence. So, labor had a lot more political clout there than they ever have here.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6268 by jester » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:37 pm

Kilgore Trout wrote:E-Mail and especially mobile e-mail, for all of its benefits, was a pretty shitty invention for service professionals and other salaried workers. There's no escape.


Try teaching on for size ... office hours are a waste of time, but emails are at all hours. I started to only respond during office hours.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6269 by Kilgore Trout » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:29 pm

CantSeeColors wrote:[
KT: my solution to that is to have separate phones. I put the work phone away at like 6:30 or 7:00 and don't pick it up again until I head to the office the next day. It takes buy-in from your superiors to get away with that, but I found that even the ones who work at weird hours don't actually expect a response until the next day.


Ha. When I started, I was convinced separate phones would be the cure. But, as you suggest, buy-in from the superiors (and, frankly, the clients) is the key. It wasn't forthcoming. So, I just spent the first five years carrying two phones for no reason; pretending that I've drawn a meaningful line in the sand.

jester wrote:Try teaching on for size ... office hours are a waste of time, but emails are at all hours. I started to only respond during office hours.
[/quote]

As you should, can't fire your professor because he had the audacity to not respond to an e-mail within an hour.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6270 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:24 am

Oh God. I just wanted to see how everyone was doing and a debate broke out. Lol.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6271 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 am

CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.


I know a ton of co-workers who have taken a promotion to jump from a technical position to manager position for like $10,000 and regretted it. I always tell people you can always find ways to make more money but you can never have more time back. Now having two kids, time is that much more valuable to me.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6272 by jester » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am

JLHockeyKnight wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.


I know a ton of co-workers who have taken a promotion to jump from a technical position to manager position for like $10,000 and regretted it. I always tell people you can always find ways to make more money but you can never have more time back. Now having two kids, time is that much more valuable to me.


One of the interesting workplace trends right now is that millennials appear to have a much better perspective on work/life balance than prior cohorts--i.e., they aren't chomping at the bit for managerial roles. I'm an oddball in the sense that I went down an academic path, but at least part of the reason I did that was because I didn't want my father's work life ... I want to coach little league, etc.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6273 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:52 am

Kilgore Trout wrote:E-Mail and especially mobile e-mail, for all of its benefits, was a pretty shitty invention for service professionals and other salaried workers. There's no escape.


This. I recently started a new position at work that is much more fast paced and I'm not taking home a work cell phone until one gets forced upon me. When I'm home, I'm home. And that's the way I want to keep it.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6274 by JLHockeyKnight » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:54 am

jester wrote:
JLHockeyKnight wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.


I know a ton of co-workers who have taken a promotion to jump from a technical position to manager position for like $10,000 and regretted it. I always tell people you can always find ways to make more money but you can never have more time back. Now having two kids, time is that much more valuable to me.


One of the interesting workplace trends right now is that millennials appear to have a much better perspective on work/life balance than prior cohorts--i.e., they aren't chomping at the bit for managerial roles. I'm an oddball in the sense that I went down an academic path, but at least part of the reason I did that was because I didn't want my father's work life ... I want to coach little league, etc.


Your point of the generational gap and millennials is spot on. All the co-workers I had in mind that regretted it are either now retired or a few years away.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6275 by Craig » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:05 am

JLHockeyKnight wrote:
CantSeeColors wrote:An interesting nugget I once heard is that when labor unions and whatever gained power, workers in America bargained for better pay, while workers in Europe bargained for better hours, and that's a big part of how we got to where we are. I thought it was an interesting observation.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable ignoring all emails on the weekend outside of special circumstances. FlyHigh, aren't you in biglaw? If so, you're going to have a skewed worldview because that industry isn't representative of the greater public at all.


I know a ton of co-workers who have taken a promotion to jump from a technical position to manager position for like $10,000 and regretted it. I always tell people you can always find ways to make more money but you can never have more time back. Now having two kids, time is that much more valuable to me.


The first level of management is always bullshit. You get a pittance more money and a lot more stress. But the promotion after that and if you're really lucky, the one after that can be really lucrative. That's when you start getting real stock options and lucrative bonuses and stuff.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6276 by FlyHigh » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:38 am

CantSeeColors wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:DC, had kind of kicked around the idea of moving back to Philly, but most firms in my practice area (public offerings/M&A/VC) don't really have a presence there. I get the impression that DC and Chicago are still demanding, but not as bad as NY (apparently Boston can also be pretty tough).

Boutique firm life seems pretty interesting, I've heard that the litigation ones can be nuts, but hopefully IP is a bit more manageable. My group here is pretty small (<10), so it's at least kind of a boutique feel perhaps, I like it a lot. Much more camaraderie and less fear.

I haven't lived on the other side of the fence, but I'm digging the vibe where I am. I do litigation at what is primarily a patent prosecution firm, so I get the benefit of the group's mentality being to work reasonable hours, but my work is far more interesting than theirs. I make half what I'd make in biglaw, but it's still enough. I feel your pain on Philly being a tiny market for my specialty though - there's probably no more than a dozen people in boutiques in Philly who do what I do.

KT: my solution to that is to have separate phones. I put the work phone away at like 6:30 or 7:00 and don't pick it up again until I head to the office the next day. It takes buy-in from your superiors to get away with that, but I found that even the ones who work at weird hours don't actually expect a response until the next day.


Oh interesting, nice one landing that role in Philly. It was kind of shocking to me how tiny Philly's market is (considering city size), but I guess maybe it makes sense when you have NY right there and then a ton of firms in DC because that's where the Feds are.

That separate phones thing is phenomenal. I just put it all on one, mostly for laziness reasons (one less thing to keep track of). Generally try to be responsive at most hours (outside of like 12-6), but not nearly as bad as NY which has been great. Hopefully re: jester's point, some of that pressure starts to fade as Gen X ages out, but I dunno, as a generation millennials might be more chill about work, but some ppl just don't seem to have a "relax and take a break" gene in their body.

Middle management seems like such a con. People are more likely to dislike you, more stress, and you're likely to be the first to go if there is downsizing. Plus, if your work before was more specialized, whatever middle managers do sounds a lot more boring.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6277 by CantSeeColors » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:52 am

FlyHigh wrote:Oh interesting, nice one landing that role in Philly. It was kind of shocking to me how tiny Philly's market is (considering city size), but I guess maybe it makes sense when you have NY right there and then a ton of firms in DC because that's where the Feds are.


I fully expected to have to go to one of those two to get a job (CA is the other big patent market, but hard pass), and took the NY bar exam for that reason. Sadly, 2008 meant nobody in the class of 2010 got a job anywhere, and I wound up getting my foot in the door as a glorified paralegal at a Philly firm in 2011. Had to take another bar exam in 2012 and didn't make a lawyer salary until 2015, so it was a long road. The market does seem to be growing if you're into general litigation or something, but the niche fields still seem really small as far as I can tell.

That separate phones thing is phenomenal. I just put it all on one, mostly for laziness reasons (one less thing to keep track of). Generally try to be responsive at most hours (outside of like 12-6), but not nearly as bad as NY which has been great. Hopefully re: jester's point, some of that pressure starts to fade as Gen X ages out, but I dunno, as a generation millennials might be more chill about work, but some ppl just don't seem to have a "relax and take a break" gene in their body.

I think this trend is going to be true at a macro level, but law, and biglaw in particular, attracts those workaholic types, so I don't expect any relief in this field any time soon.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6278 by FlyHigh » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:10 pm

Damn, that is unbelievably unlucky timing on your part, really glad everything worked out OK.

Feel like luck has an outsize impact in the legal industry. My whole career (and potentially life?) would have been different except I interviewed with my first firm on kind of a lark during OCI and got lucky. Those classes of 2008-2010 though, man, just no way to know what was coming unless you moonlighted as a stock market genius in your spare time.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6279 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:08 pm

Alright just been working a lot lately and whatever free time I have is consumed by the girlfriend. Have yet to get down the shore yet which is pretty annoying. How about you bud?
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6280 by jester » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:43 pm

FlyHigh wrote:That separate phones thing is phenomenal. I just put it all on one, mostly for laziness reasons (one less thing to keep track of). Generally try to be responsive at most hours (outside of like 12-6), but not nearly as bad as NY which has been great. Hopefully re: jester's point, some of that pressure starts to fade as Gen X ages out, but I dunno, as a generation millennials might be more chill about work, but some ppl just don't seem to have a "relax and take a break" gene in their body.


It's a potentially big deal, yeah. As older cohorts move into retirement ... who replaces them? While there is certainly a work ethic gene (nature or nurture, who knows), this is actually a more widespread generational shift that has been noted in some literature. Basically, millenials appear to be finding a nice income level that lets them do what they want to do ... and they just pop a squat. They also do not job jump nearly as much as prior generations if I remember correctly, so they aren't chasing upwardly mobile jobs. It's going to have an impact outside of work, too. Who is going to buy up the McMansions when prior generations look to downsize?

I do think we in the US can generally develop a better appreciation for life outside of work ... which manifests in all sorts of area (maternity leave, paternity leave, paid vacation, etc.). But as I said in the post up above, raw capitalist ideology didn't take the hit here that it did elsewhere in the 20th c., so it is going to take a paradigm shift. Perhaps millenials are the forefront of that (I say that with the awareness that technically I and I assume all of you fall within the upper end of the millenial generation).

And dude ... fuck NYC. I had a lot of friends there post school (it's a beacon for Penn grads given the Wharton/Econ/etc.), and it is just soul crushing. My best friend went into real estate finance (he was there for the show), and he ended up on anti-anxiety meds and his hair was falling out due to work stress. He ended up ditching for grad school at UNC, moved to Atlanta, and swore off ever moving back to the Northeast. Big Law/Finance is a bad thing for a life all around, but the reality of NYC is that the work requirements in those industries leach into all others. I don't care what you're doing up there, life is better doing the same job elsewhere.

And your views of the Philly law scene mirror what a good friend is going through. She worked at the big firm in Philly (you can probably guess) since graduating Harvard Law, and she's looking to shift to elsewhere and it sounds like her options are NY, DC, or just leaving for a different lifestyle--she's from the Harrisburg area and has three kids ... and may end up doing something out there. She had a job offer in NYC, but as soon as she and her husband looked into it they said no thanks.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6281 by jester » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:46 pm

JLHockeyKnight wrote:
Kilgore Trout wrote:E-Mail and especially mobile e-mail, for all of its benefits, was a pretty shitty invention for service professionals and other salaried workers. There's no escape.


This. I recently started a new position at work that is much more fast paced and I'm not taking home a work cell phone until one gets forced upon me. When I'm home, I'm home. And that's the way I want to keep it.


My wife's hospital (she is a NP) is trying to basically hijack her personal phone so that they can communicate to her there in addition to her work phone. Talk about some bullshit.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6282 by Craig » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:49 pm

Surely millennials job hop more, not less.

Also, the new generations being lazy thing is a fallacy. Data is limited, but the post millennial generation that's just entering the workforce looks to be exceptionally hard working.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6283 by jester » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 pm

Craig wrote:Surely millennials job hop more, not less.

Also, the new generations being lazy thing is a fallacy. Data is limited, but the post millennial generation that's just entering the workforce looks to be exceptionally hard working.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... -mind/amp/

Here's a quick search result, that argues roughly the same movement as Gen X. I swear I read something about not moving as much as prior gens previously.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6284 by Craig » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:36 pm

I only doubted it because the era of going to work in the factory or the mine or whatever for 40 years is pretty much over. I feel like services workers have more mobility. I have no data to back that up.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6285 by Hovercraft » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:22 am

Job hopping is more out of necessity. Hard to get permamnent positions in the land of short term contracts
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6286 by CantSeeColors » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:12 am

Craig wrote:I only doubted it because the era of going to work in the factory or the mine or whatever for 40 years is pretty much over. I feel like services workers have more mobility. I have no data to back that up.

Wasn't this era already pretty much over starting with the boomers? At least for Gen X.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6287 by Craig » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:38 am

CantSeeColors wrote:
Craig wrote:I only doubted it because the era of going to work in the factory or the mine or whatever for 40 years is pretty much over. I feel like services workers have more mobility. I have no data to back that up.

Wasn't this era already pretty much over starting with the boomers? At least for Gen X.


Boomers very much had this. Gen X is probably somewhere in between. Like, Gen X entered the workforce around 1980, there were still some of those jobs around back then.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6288 by FlyHigh » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:04 am

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:That separate phones thing is phenomenal. I just put it all on one, mostly for laziness reasons (one less thing to keep track of). Generally try to be responsive at most hours (outside of like 12-6), but not nearly as bad as NY which has been great. Hopefully re: jester's point, some of that pressure starts to fade as Gen X ages out, but I dunno, as a generation millennials might be more chill about work, but some ppl just don't seem to have a "relax and take a break" gene in their body.


It's a potentially big deal, yeah. As older cohorts move into retirement ... who replaces them? While there is certainly a work ethic gene (nature or nurture, who knows), this is actually a more widespread generational shift that has been noted in some literature. Basically, millenials appear to be finding a nice income level that lets them do what they want to do ... and they just pop a squat. They also do not job jump nearly as much as prior generations if I remember correctly, so they aren't chasing upwardly mobile jobs. It's going to have an impact outside of work, too. Who is going to buy up the McMansions when prior generations look to downsize?

I do think we in the US can generally develop a better appreciation for life outside of work ... which manifests in all sorts of area (maternity leave, paternity leave, paid vacation, etc.). But as I said in the post up above, raw capitalist ideology didn't take the hit here that it did elsewhere in the 20th c., so it is going to take a paradigm shift. Perhaps millenials are the forefront of that (I say that with the awareness that technically I and I assume all of you fall within the upper end of the millenial generation).

And dude ... fuck NYC. I had a lot of friends there post school (it's a beacon for Penn grads given the Wharton/Econ/etc.), and it is just soul crushing. My best friend went into real estate finance (he was there for the show), and he ended up on anti-anxiety meds and his hair was falling out due to work stress. He ended up ditching for grad school at UNC, moved to Atlanta, and swore off ever moving back to the Northeast. Big Law/Finance is a bad thing for a life all around, but the reality of NYC is that the work requirements in those industries leach into all others. I don't care what you're doing up there, life is better doing the same job elsewhere.

And your views of the Philly law scene mirror what a good friend is going through. She worked at the big firm in Philly (you can probably guess) since graduating Harvard Law, and she's looking to shift to elsewhere and it sounds like her options are NY, DC, or just leaving for a different lifestyle--she's from the Harrisburg area and has three kids ... and may end up doing something out there. She had a job offer in NYC, but as soon as she and her husband looked into it they said no thanks.


On your 2nd paragraph, I do think millennials might have a pretty large impact on this attitude. Not saying that we're all DSA members and Chapo Trap House listeners, but ideas like "Medicare for All" and "free/cheaper college" were barely on the fringes of political discussions 10 (or even 5) years ago and now they're going to be a part of the Democratic Party platform within the next few years. The Republican Party now basically embodies the "raw, capitalist ideology" you refer to (plus a whole lot of nativism or outright racism) and they are eventually going to face a demographic hammer unless Gen Z takes a very weird turn.

I'm also curious if millennials as a cohort are as material-oriented as prior generations. My impression is that 10-20 years ago, "keeping up with the Joneses" meant buying a nice house, getting a German car, etc. For millennials, appears to be more experience-oriented and generally cheaper. Nobody I know that's around my age really aspires to own a Mercedes or a McMansion (and I know a fair number of biglaw folks just through work). People will always value material things on some level, but there's a difference between a $65,000 car or a $1MM house versus owning a lot of Lululemon.

I think your NYC experience is linked to the type of person you are. If you like to go out a lot, don't care about nice outdoor space, don't really like to cook or stay at home, can function on limited sleep, are generally extroverted, have interest in "the arts", and etc., it's probably awesome, particularly if you're early-mid 20s. On the other hand, if you are the opposite of those things, the major drawbacks (the subway really is miserable, rent and COL are through the roof, work culture sucks) will drive you insane. Bit of a caveat that I'm sure living and working in Manhattan versus living and working in Brooklyn/Queens are significantly different experiences. I was tied to MH because of work and didn't love it.

The northeast is general kind of sucks in a lot of ways. The weather is meh (brutal humid summers, harsh winters), COL is way above the rest of the country outside of a couple pockets, ppl generally aren't particularly friendly, working culture is generally worse I think, etc. I think the reason most of us are here are (i) jobs, (ii) family/friend connections if you grew up here or (iii) a combination of both.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6289 by Craig » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:11 am

Medicare for all has been in and out of the Democrats policies for years. Hillary tried to get that through when Bill was President.

In 10 years, the people who are all chasing experiences now will settle down with kids and suddenly want the mansion and the car. That's also not new to Millennials.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6290 by FlyHigh » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:39 am

Craig wrote:Medicare for all has been in and out of the Democrats policies for years. Hillary tried to get that through when Bill was President.

In 10 years, the people who are all chasing experiences now will settle down with kids and suddenly want the mansion and the car. That's also not new to Millennials.


Hillary has consistently opposed single-payer (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -interview). She specifically said she considered it in the early 90s and then ditched it.

In 10 years, most of those people still won't be able to afford to. Birth rates are historically low right now and we've been in an economic expansion for nearly 10 years. (https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5 ... ls-economy).
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6291 by jester » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:46 pm

FlyHigh wrote:
Craig wrote:Medicare for all has been in and out of the Democrats policies for years. Hillary tried to get that through when Bill was President.

In 10 years, the people who are all chasing experiences now will settle down with kids and suddenly want the mansion and the car. That's also not new to Millennials.


Hillary has consistently opposed single-payer (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -interview). She specifically said she considered it in the early 90s and then ditched it.

In 10 years, most of those people still won't be able to afford to. Birth rates are historically low right now and we've been in an economic expansion for nearly 10 years. (https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5 ... ls-economy).


Medicare for all is not necessarily single payer ... it's the public option, which is exactly what was on the table in the 90s. Nixon also toyed with the idea, I believe. It isn't that novel, but the political will just has never been there. I think a public option is all but certain as soon as 2020 if the Dems do well.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6292 by FlyHigh » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:22 pm

jester wrote:
FlyHigh wrote:
Craig wrote:Medicare for all has been in and out of the Democrats policies for years. Hillary tried to get that through when Bill was President.

In 10 years, the people who are all chasing experiences now will settle down with kids and suddenly want the mansion and the car. That's also not new to Millennials.


Hillary has consistently opposed single-payer (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -interview). She specifically said she considered it in the early 90s and then ditched it.

In 10 years, most of those people still won't be able to afford to. Birth rates are historically low right now and we've been in an economic expansion for nearly 10 years. (https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5 ... ls-economy).


Medicare for all is not necessarily single payer ... it's the public option, which is exactly what was on the table in the 90s. Nixon also toyed with the idea, I believe. It isn't that novel, but the political will just has never been there. I think a public option is all but certain as soon as 2020 if the Dems do well.


I think the left wing of the party essentially views Medicare for all = single-payer. If Dems actually win and have power in 2020, I could see some kind of Medicare for all w/ a public option happening immediately, but I do think that the single-payer push is pretty real, will only get stronger, and probably has a good chance of being in the platform in the not-too-distant future.

I think some of those ppl have figured out that "Medicare for all" polls a lot better than "single-payer" (because the word 'Medicare' is easily recognizable and popular), but I'd bet that the Bernie crowd is all-in on single-payer.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6293 by jester » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:14 pm

FlyHigh wrote:I think the left wing of the party essentially views Medicare for all = single-payer. If Dems actually win and have power in 2020, I could see some kind of Medicare for all w/ a public option happening immediately, but I do think that the single-payer push is pretty real, will only get stronger, and probably has a good chance of being in the platform in the not-too-distant future.

I think some of those ppl have figured out that "Medicare for all" polls a lot better than "single-payer" (because the word 'Medicare' is easily recognizable and popular), but I'd bet that the Bernie crowd is all-in on single-payer.


Keep in mind that the vast majority of people don't actually know what they're talking about ... so, yeah, there's a lot of casual use of "single payer" without actually getting into the details. That being said, one of the assumed realities of medicare for all and/or a simple public option is that like the borg, it will take over the marketplace relatively swiftly because it would presumably be a) desirable coverage; b) cheap coverage; and c) be very difficult for private insurance to compete with. I believe Vox ran an explainer on this a year or so ago that went into the basics of it. But the gist boils down to that you'd see the health insurance marketplace become one with a dominant public option (however that is done) with supplemental private insurance operating on the margins--not unlike a number of countries in Europe and elsewhere. Key to all of this--and a big part of the proposal here--is allowing employers to sign onto medicare.

I'm a big believer in universal healthcare, but people need to pump the breaks a bit on a swift implementation of "single payer." That's a massive paradigm shift taking place on a huge portion of the economy, and any such transition is going to be rife with problems in implementation. That's why the creation of the Medicare for all scheme (i.e., anyone can sign onto medicare if they want without restriction) is a lot more appealing to me. It will not be so immediately disruptive, and will likely result in a much softer landing for all parties involved (patients, doctors, hospitals, pharma, medical devices, etc.).

We should have fixed our healthcare system decades ago, but here we are.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6294 by DeadPhish » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:08 pm

So far so good, although its almost over already.

Finally got the boat in the water after complete restore of the entire thing. Of course now I'm too busy with work to use it.

And this week is Phish tour! We are going to 4 shows.

Hows yours been with all those kids??
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6295 by JLHockeyKnight » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:42 pm

DeadPhish wrote:So far so good, although its almost over already.

Finally got the boat in the water after complete restore of the entire thing. Of course now I'm too busy with work to use it.

And this week is Phish tour! We are going to 4 shows.

Hows yours been with all those kids??


Kids are doing great. We just got back from family vacation. Ended way too soon.

And not sure if I mentioned earlier but I started a new job in a new office at work. More fast paced and meeting a lot of folks which is good networking.

Not a boat but I've found that owning a pool is a pain in the butt but nice when we actually use it. We moved into the new house back in December. Also I love mowing my lawn...hour to myself with a morning beer in the cup holder of my ride on mower.

Have fun at Phish! I saw Mastodon and Primus a few months ago. One of the best shows I've ever been to.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6296 by jester » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:21 am

JLHockeyKnight wrote:Not a boat but I've found that owning a pool is a pain in the butt but nice when we actually use it. We moved into the new house back in December. Also I love mowing my lawn...hour to myself with a morning beer in the cup holder of my ride on mower.


We looked hard at a house with a pool, and I am so happy we didn't get it.

And, yeah, it's amazing what activities are appealing with small children around. I have a 40 min commute befinning this fall, and I have zero problem with it ... podcasts and just me.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6297 by Kilgore Trout » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:38 pm

Love my commute (unless I have a specific need to be in at a certain time), per the discussion the other day it’s one of the genuinely e-mail free parts of my day.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6298 by JLHockeyKnight » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:20 pm

jester wrote:
JLHockeyKnight wrote:Not a boat but I've found that owning a pool is a pain in the butt but nice when we actually use it. We moved into the new house back in December. Also I love mowing my lawn...hour to myself with a morning beer in the cup holder of my ride on mower.


We looked hard at a house with a pool, and I am so happy we didn't get it.

And, yeah, it's amazing what activities are appealing with small children around. I have a 40 min commute befinning this fall, and I have zero problem with it ... podcasts and just me.


45 minute commute. Yep, it's great in the morning to collect my thoughts before work. Tougher during the late afternoon for the commute home when I just want to get home. Been teleworking once a week and I'm really enjoying doing that a bit.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6299 by Rogers Pancreas » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:39 pm

I love my 45 minute commute. Like Jester said, it's a little bit of personal time you're guaranteed Monday through Friday.

But more than anything, I love saying, when there's an "emergency" at work, "I'll be right in. Just give me an hour or so." The reply is usually "Oh, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out." You weren't about to figure it out, until I told you I was home and you were going to have to wait an hour just so I can take a look at whatever it is you're describing over the phone... POORLY. If I was right around the corner, at home, though, you'd have no effing problem interrupting my time away, and dragging me back into that pit. You rotten son of a whore mongering orangutan.
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Re: OT Thread, NOT Obsequious 2

Post #6300 by Konecny HypeTrain Captain » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 pm

When I worked in KoP I hated driving to work because it took anywhere from roughly forty-five minutes to two hours because you know i76 and shit. But driving home when there was literally zero traffic I didn't mind at all and it would help me unwind a bit after the shift. Now I barely have a commute and I like that a lot right now considering I'm doing some major house renovations.

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