Murrica: fuck yeah

..et d'autres discussions ennuyeuses
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10801 by mayoradamwest » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:54 pm

I find it strange how obsessed with Clinton people are. I mean, Bob Dole sold Viagra after he lost. Gore made documentaries.... McCain donated his spine for a few years.... Yet Hilary Clinton became a constant foil or straw woman to hold up every day.

I guess holding election losers to account is an idea, though I'd suggest that if you needed to do that the people IN power might be more relevant...
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10802 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Nick, what I said is that you came in here parroting alt-right speaking points. Remember, it was in response to you coming into the thread, offering nothing of substance, and just saying « But Clinton, warmonger, you’d applaud because liberal media controls yer mind ». What is that if not alt-right nonesense? I doubt many here supported the Iraq war even back when the « liberal media » suported it, I know I certainly didn’t. Nor would most here argue that Clinton wasn’t hawkish. Also, wtf does Clinton have to do with anything here? Your posts, to which I responded, was just unproductive banter.

It’s like anything. Offer your point of view, argue your case. That’s all good. Offer nothing but « clinton, lock her up!!! brainwashed libruls!!!11 » and that’s not so good.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10803 by mayoradamwest » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:03 pm

Hilary Clinton should sell viagara.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10804 by clawfirst » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:16 pm

Something something made hard joke
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10805 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm

Dog wrote:Nick, what I said is that you came in here parroting alt-right speaking points. Remember, it was in response to you coming into the thread, offering nothing of substance, and just saying « But Clinton, warmonger, you’d applaud because liberal media controls yer mind ». What is that if not alt-right nonesense? I doubt many here supported the Iraq war even back when the « liberal media » suported it, I know I certainly didn’t. Nor would most here argue that Clinton wasn’t hawkish. Also, wtf does Clinton have to do with anything here? Your posts, to which I responded, was just unproductive banter.

It’s like anything. Offer your point of view, argue your case. That’s all good. Offer nothing but « clinton, lock her up!!! brainwashed libruls!!!11 » and that’s not so good.


I just find incredible how the press goes silent when Obama/Clinton bomb Libya and Syria but goes bananas because Trump tries to establish a dialogue with North Korea... yet it applauds the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine. It's also a critique what the left has become, hating the working mens and loving humanitarian bombings. Iraq was the last major event when the left actually spoke and acted like the left.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10806 by Retardé S » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:29 pm

We are on the verge of world peace, and you people desperately discredit lord Trump on the basis of his condo selling ability. Sad.

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10807 by chicpea » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:48 pm

Slick Nick wrote:I just find incredible how the press goes silent when Obama/Clinton bomb Libya and Syria but goes bananas because Trump tries to establish a dialogue with North Korea... yet it applauds the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine. It's also a critique what the left has become, hating the working mens and loving humanitarian bombings. Iraq was the last major event when the left actually spoke and acted like the left.


I don't recall applauding the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine, but I'm glad that's how you remember it.

That said, I don't recall you lambasting the annexation of Crimea either - and you may have, though that is somewhat doubtful.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10808 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:07 pm

chicpea wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:I just find incredible how the press goes silent when Obama/Clinton bomb Libya and Syria but goes bananas because Trump tries to establish a dialogue with North Korea... yet it applauds the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine. It's also a critique what the left has become, hating the working mens and loving humanitarian bombings. Iraq was the last major event when the left actually spoke and acted like the left.


I don't recall applauding the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine, but I'm glad that's how you remember it.

That said, I don't recall you lambasting the annexation of Crimea either - and you may have, though that is somewhat doubtful.


There would have been no annexation of Crimea or war in Ukraine had the world listened to Russia's concerns and actually supported a democratic process in Ukraine instead of vouching for an illegal seizure of power by people among which could be found not quasi but literal nazis... again, the result of unilateral politics. And if you love Ukraine as I think you do, the last thing you want to see happening right now is the sales of advanced weapons to Kiev, because it could end in an very very ugly way...
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10809 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:21 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Nick, what I said is that you came in here parroting alt-right speaking points. Remember, it was in response to you coming into the thread, offering nothing of substance, and just saying « But Clinton, warmonger, you’d applaud because liberal media controls yer mind ». What is that if not alt-right nonesense? I doubt many here supported the Iraq war even back when the « liberal media » suported it, I know I certainly didn’t. Nor would most here argue that Clinton wasn’t hawkish. Also, wtf does Clinton have to do with anything here? Your posts, to which I responded, was just unproductive banter.

It’s like anything. Offer your point of view, argue your case. That’s all good. Offer nothing but « clinton, lock her up!!! brainwashed libruls!!!11 » and that’s not so good.


I just find incredible how the press goes silent when Obama/Clinton bomb Libya and Syria but goes bananas because Trump tries to establish a dialogue with North Korea... yet it applauds the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine. It's also a critique what the left has become, hating the working mens and loving humanitarian bombings. Iraq was the last major event when the left actually spoke and acted like the left.


If your purpose is to vent against some notion of librul hypocrites that you have, then there isn’t much to discuss. If you want to exchange ideas on specific subjects, then I think that can be interesting.

On north korea, my personal position is that containment, even if tense at times, is acceptable if no comprehensive solution can be found (where everybody feels secure enough to back down and normalize relations (somewhat).

If this is an attempt towards that with reverting to the status quo ante the fallback, then, like I stated in my first post to you, this is all good.

The problem is that I doubt that a return to the status quo ante is likely if this fails. This has been done so naively, so personally, so bombastically...that, what’s the fall back? Status quo ante or more aggresive response? Considering that it’s unlikely that this leads to a resolution, what worries me is that it just increases the odds of falling into a more aggressive situation afterwards. I very much mind if that level of risk was undertaken for electoral purposes.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10810 by Shawnathan Horcoff » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:21 pm

Save us, Frank Fukuyama. Image
Also, let's keep this thread about Galchenyuk's on-ice performance, development and value and NOT bring in his personal life or race.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10811 by mayoradamwest » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:24 pm

Shawnathan Horcoff wrote:Save us, Frank Fukuyama. Image


He retired after history ended.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10812 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:31 pm

But history restarted!
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10813 by PredsFan77 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:47 pm

mayoradamwest wrote:I find it strange how obsessed with Clinton people are. I mean, Bob Dole sold Viagra after he lost. Gore made documentaries.... McCain donated his spine for a few years.... Yet Hilary Clinton became a constant foil or straw woman to hold up every day.

I guess holding election losers to account is an idea, though I'd suggest that if you needed to do that the people IN power might be more relevant...


History is written by the victors.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10814 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
chicpea wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:I just find incredible how the press goes silent when Obama/Clinton bomb Libya and Syria but goes bananas because Trump tries to establish a dialogue with North Korea... yet it applauds the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine. It's also a critique what the left has become, hating the working mens and loving humanitarian bombings. Iraq was the last major event when the left actually spoke and acted like the left.


I don't recall applauding the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine, but I'm glad that's how you remember it.

That said, I don't recall you lambasting the annexation of Crimea either - and you may have, though that is somewhat doubtful.


There would have been no annexation of Crimea or war in Ukraine had the world listened to Russia's concerns and actually supported a democratic process in Ukraine instead of vouching for an illegal seizure of power by people among which could be found not quasi but literal nazis... again, the result of unilateral politics. And if you love Ukraine as I think you do, the last thing you want to see happening right now is the sales of advanced weapons to Kiev, because it could end in an very very ugly way...


So, is your position basically that Russia’s military might ought to be respected and it should be given a « circle of influence » in which the West should not intervene? That, further, Russia is justified in taking direct military action to fight for that « circle of influence »?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10815 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:I find it strange how obsessed with Clinton people are. I mean, Bob Dole sold Viagra after he lost. Gore made documentaries.... McCain donated his spine for a few years.... Yet Hilary Clinton became a constant foil or straw woman to hold up every day.

I guess holding election losers to account is an idea, though I'd suggest that if you needed to do that the people IN power might be more relevant...


History is written by the victors.


I’ve always wondered if these Victors all share the same name by coincidence or design.

:rimshot:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10816 by mayoradamwest » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:56 pm

PredsFan77 wrote:
mayoradamwest wrote:I find it strange how obsessed with Clinton people are. I mean, Bob Dole sold Viagra after he lost. Gore made documentaries.... McCain donated his spine for a few years.... Yet Hilary Clinton became a constant foil or straw woman to hold up every day.

I guess holding election losers to account is an idea, though I'd suggest that if you needed to do that the people IN power might be more relevant...


History is written by the victors.


History is generally written by losers off to the side :colbert:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10817 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
chicpea wrote:
I don't recall applauding the sales of lethal weapons to Ukraine, but I'm glad that's how you remember it.

That said, I don't recall you lambasting the annexation of Crimea either - and you may have, though that is somewhat doubtful.


There would have been no annexation of Crimea or war in Ukraine had the world listened to Russia's concerns and actually supported a democratic process in Ukraine instead of vouching for an illegal seizure of power by people among which could be found not quasi but literal nazis... again, the result of unilateral politics. And if you love Ukraine as I think you do, the last thing you want to see happening right now is the sales of advanced weapons to Kiev, because it could end in an very very ugly way...


So, is your position basically that Russia’s military might ought to be respected and it should be given a « circle of influence » in which the West should not intervene? That, further, Russia is justified in taking direct military action to fight for that « circle of influence »?


No my point is that war is the continuation of politics by other means and when politics are flawed, like it was the case in the resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, war was very much at stakes. Had the US supported the idea of elections (!!!) in Ukraine, war would have been most likely avoided.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10818 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:16 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
No my point is that war is the continuation of politics by other means and when politics are flawed, like it was the case in the resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, war was very much at stakes. Had the US and Germany supported the idea of elections (!!!) in Ukraine, war would have been most likely avoided.


How do you explain the Russian invasion of Georgia?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10819 by chicpea » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:22 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
There would have been no annexation of Crimea or war in Ukraine had the world listened to Russia's concerns and actually supported a democratic process


Okay. Russian support for democratic processes is a new field of study to the world and especially so concerning that of neighbours on the verge of being attacked, so I would like to read your intel on this.


Slick Nick wrote: ...instead of vouching for an illegal seizure of power by people among which could be found not quasi but literal nazis...


Literal nazis can be found in any nation. To whom are you referring specifically? Please provide a reference paper or credible link.


Slick Nick wrote:And if you love Ukraine as I think you do...


Not sure what this means and I could care even less.

Slick Nick wrote:...the last thing you want to see happening right now is the sales of advanced weapons to Kiev, because it could end in an very very ugly way...


And ending on a menacing threat from a Canadian to a country that is being occupied by a dictator and his minions. Great stuff.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10820 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:33 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
No my point is that war is the continuation of politics by other means and when politics are flawed, like it was the case in the resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, war was very much at stakes. Had the US and Germany supported the idea of elections (!!!) in Ukraine, war would have been most likely avoided.


How do you explain the Russian invasion of Georgia?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... ussia.html
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10821 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:49 pm

chicpea wrote:And ending on a menacing threat from a Canadian to a country that is being occupied by a dictator and his minions. Great stuff.


Everything's alright with you? How am I threatening anyone? I'm just stating the obvious, more weapons, more escalation will only lead to very ugly things... it's a terrible idea. What Ukraine needs right now is deescalation, not more guns.

I'm not going through all of your points pea..
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10822 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:57 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
No my point is that war is the continuation of politics by other means and when politics are flawed, like it was the case in the resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, war was very much at stakes. Had the US and Germany supported the idea of elections (!!!) in Ukraine, war would have been most likely avoided.


How do you explain the Russian invasion of Georgia?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... ussia.html


Direct quote from your link:

« In conclusion, the EU report, which runs to 1139 pages in three volumes, blamed the roots of the conflict on Russia's attempts to dominate its small neighbour and Georgia's sometime erratic responses to Moscow's aggression.
"(The evaluation) has to consider the impact of a great power's coercive politics and diplomacy against a small and insubordinate neighbour, together with the small neighbour's penchant for overplaying its hand and acting in the heat of the moment," the report concluded.« 
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10823 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:11 pm

Nick, let’s stop beating around the bush. Do you really believe that Russia is not trying to project power in its neighborhood and pushing back what it (rightly) perceives as western expansion into what it considers its backyard?

I mean, I certainly think the West expanded its influence and military towards Russia’s border. And I think Russia is pushing back. I think they are once again competing entities for control and influence.

Which is right? None, they are essentially doing the same thing.

Which do I ´root’ for? Liberal democracy. If Russia was liberal democratic and the West autocratic, I’d be pro-Russian. Of course, the West is nowhere near perfect liberal democracies. Still, they are exceedingly more so than the alternatives.

Does that mean I’m a neocon? No. I don’t believe you can expand liberal democracy by force where it has no or little roots. I’m more of a live and let live kinda guy. I think Nato expansion so close to Russia was « poking the bear ». I think the US ceding more regional power to China is inevitable and not the end of the world. There are competing systems pushing against each other and I like to avoid pointless conflict. Recognize geopolitical realities. I also recognize that tension along ´frontlines’ will be inevitable.

Does that mean I’m suddenly agnostic as to preferred sociopolitical system? Nope. Firmly a liberal democrat and very weary of autocratic regimes.

Right now, the most alarming thing to me is that right wing populism and even authoritarianism is on a very worisome rise in the West. Liberal democracy is putting itself in existential jeopardy from within.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10824 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:18 pm

Dog wrote:
Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:
How do you explain the Russian invasion of Georgia?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... ussia.html


Direct quote from your link:

« In conclusion, the EU report, which runs to 1139 pages in three volumes, blamed the roots of the conflict on Russia's attempts to dominate its small neighbour and Georgia's sometime erratic responses to Moscow's aggression.
"(The evaluation) has to consider the impact of a great power's coercive politics and diplomacy against a small and insubordinate neighbour, together with the small neighbour's penchant for overplaying its hand and acting in the heat of the moment," the report concluded.« 


Look, the point is even the EU considers Georgia started the conflict. You can't go around it, Georgia bombed the hell out of Tskhinvali, killed 160 civilians in their sleep and some Russian peacekeeping forces... Russia retaliated. No bombing of Tskhinvali, no invasion.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10825 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:22 pm

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:


Direct quote from your link:

« In conclusion, the EU report, which runs to 1139 pages in three volumes, blamed the roots of the conflict on Russia's attempts to dominate its small neighbour and Georgia's sometime erratic responses to Moscow's aggression.
"(The evaluation) has to consider the impact of a great power's coercive politics and diplomacy against a small and insubordinate neighbour, together with the small neighbour's penchant for overplaying its hand and acting in the heat of the moment," the report concluded.« 


Look, the point is even the EU considers Georgia started the conflict. You can't go around it, Georgia bombed the hell out of Tskhinvali, killed 160 civilians in their sleep and some Russian peacekeeping forces... Russia retaliated. No bombing of Tskhinvali, no invasion.


Did Georgia do that for fun or did it badly overreact to Russian interferrence?

I mean, nick, please don’t tell me that Russia doesn’t project power on its neighbors and tries to maintain a sphere of influence around it. I mean, it would be astonishing otherwise. It would be the sole power that doesn’t do it.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10826 by PredsFan77 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:26 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10827 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:44 pm

Dog wrote:Nick, let’s stop beating around the bush. Do you really believe that Russia is not trying to project power in its neighborhood and pushing back what it (rightly) perceives as western expansion into what it considers its backyard?

I mean, I certainly think the West expanded its influence and military towards Russia’s border. And I think Russia is pushing back. I think they are once again competing entities for control and influence.

Which is right? None, they are essentially doing the same thing.

Which do I ´root’ for? Liberal democracy. If Russia was liberal democratic and the West autocratic, I’d be pro-Russian. Of course, the West is nowhere near perfect liberal democracies. Still, they are exceedingly more so than the alternatives.

Does that mean I’m a neocon? No. I don’t believe you can expand liberal democracy by force where it has no or little roots. I’m more of a live and let live kinda guy. I think Nato expansion so close to Russia was « poking the bear ». I think the US ceading more regional power to China is inevitable and not the end of the world. There are competing systems pushing against each other and I like to avoid pointless conflict. Recognize geopolitical realities. I also recognize that tension along ´frontlines’ will be inevitable.

Does that mean I’m suddenly agnostic as to preferred sociopolitical system? Nope. Firmly a liberal democrat and very weary of autocratic regimes.

Right now, the most alarming thing to me is that right wing populism and even authoritarianism is on a very worisome rise in the West. Liberal democracy is putting itself in existential jeopardy from within.


What you forget to take into consideration in your analysis is that Russia perceives the Western expansion as an existential threat to it's security. Russia has a severe traumatic history of invasions and it's not going to let that happen again, whatever the price. Obviously, it sees the post soviet space as a sphere of influence and economic interests are high, but Russia is really concerned (paranoid) about is security. As for Russia not being a liberal democracy, a lot of it has ironically to do with NATO's eastern expansion. Until Putin's second term, the Westernizers were the leading faction in Russian politics. They saw Russia as a Western state that was unjustly out of the club through out the contingencies of it's tumultuous history. They tried hard to move Russia into the Western sphere, but the attempts failed.. For many reasons, Europe and the West just couldn't take on the colossal task of reforming Russia and integrating it into it's institutions. That failure and specially the decision to expend NATO east gave the balance of power to the Statists who argued that since the West couldn't integrate Russia, it would subjugate it by force. As for the domination of the post Soviet sphere, it is also a disputed question inside Russia.. many influential figures argued about how much of a leach the stans and the Caucasus were for Russia and that it should abruptly stop even trading with them. If we take Georgia, when the Russians invaded, they didn't seek to take any cities, gain economic advantages or even press regime change, the Russians basically went on a week long adventure of dynamiting a couple of billions worth of American funded military installations. As for Ukraine, what Russia cares about is both it's pipelines (main sources of revenues for the state) and it's security (no NATO, securing it's control of Crimea to dominate the Black Sea).. obviously there are a lot of economic stakes aside from the pipelines, but the main issue that remains both in Ukraine and in Georgia is security.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10828 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:53 pm

I don’t disagree with that. In the end, though, Russia was just too big and had too far to go to « Westernize ». The West badly fucked up by aggressively pushing shock treatment neolib policies when communism collapsed and NATO expanssion was also overly aggressive. Russia is not without blame, of course, for its woes. The country’s institutions stink. Not sure that even in the best of situations it would have played out well.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10829 by Dog » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 pm

Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10830 by clawfirst » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 pm

But without it hockey and football will cease to exist in the next 10 years. Though they may already be unwatchable.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10831 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:21 pm

Dog wrote:Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.


Although I agree that it's of concern, I try to evaluate politicians on their policies rather than their individual styles. Obama was a great speaker, a very lovable sophisticated mens, but his policies had me very disappointed. Trump is a caricatural bouffon, but if he leaves office with more positive than negative impact his society and the world, I will judge him on that.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10832 by Slick Nick » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:27 pm

If anyone's interested in boring podcasts, I found this pretty interesting...

http://seansrussiablog.org/2018/05/26/r ... -on-trump/
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10833 by Retardé S » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:17 am

Dog wrote:Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.


I think you really exaggerate what's going on in the west in regards to the neoconservative platform. You too easily conflate fascism with nationalism and patriotism. As far as I'm concerned there's more of a totalitarian threat coming from the left than fascism from the right. And the refusal to even entertain the thought of it can indeed cause broken societies, broken mens and womens and in the end tyranny, the tyranny you're so afraid of. Trump has a strong belief of "America first" wether that benefits his country in the end or not, I just don't see where the fascism terror comes from. There's currently an ongoing shift in culture, so there's hope that people finally judge others as individuals rather than judge their ideas based on their superficial identity in a power hierarchy based on race/gender/sexual orientation/social status ect.

I feel like the notion of individualism was way more prevalent when growing up, but the last decade or so we've seen it transform into collective identity tribalism and an attack on freedom of speech perpetrated by leftist entities in the west that in turns affects our way of dealing with great issues. Then in turn the anger of the people brings us Trumps, Le Pens and if culture and government marginalizes a big chunk of society, it will potentially create extremely chaotic consequences. That would also happen if we'd live in a society where even moderate liberal ideas and stances would be ungenuinely misconstrued and made taboo.

That's what leads me to believe it's not all really about politics, but more about humans' inability to cope with the outside world. (technology?)
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10834 by Slick Nick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:11 am

You know there's a serious problem with the left in America when Tucker Carlson goes on a 10 minute rant about the role of America in the Syrian war while you have MSNBC praising Trump as finally presidential for his decision to bomb Syria...
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10835 by Retardé S » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:29 am

Slick Nick wrote:You know there's a serious problem with the left in America when Tucker Carlson goes on a 10 minute rant about the role of America in the Syrian war while you have MSNBC praising Trump as finally presidential for his decision to bomb Syria...


MSNBC cares about dead Syrian kids
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10836 by Slick Nick » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:48 am

Retardé S wrote:There's currently an ongoing shift in culture, so there's hope that people finally judge others as individuals rather than judge their ideas based on their superficial identity in a power hierarchy based on race/gender/sexual orientation/social status ect.

I feel like the notion of individualism was way more prevalent when growing up, but the last decade or so we've seen it transform into collective identity tribalism...


There's nothing that fills my heart with warmth like seeing people of every origin consider themselves as a genuine part of our societies. My best friend, who I consider to be one of the most on point social observer of all time, told me a couple of years ago while discussing the more present electric guitar in rap music: the cool white kids wear Jordans and the cool black kids wear Vans, there's something about it that tells us about the changing forces in society.. I didn't make any sense of it when he first said it.. but then it struck me. The times of clichés and stereotypes are finally (almost) over. But then, out of nowhere, you have the so called progressive left bringing in racial stereotypes in every single conversation. Like everything we tried to dismantle for decades now blows up in our face with cultural appropriation, white privilege, perennial victimhood... as if the white kids should dance des set carré while wearing a shame hat and black kids should play the tamtam while wearing the victim hat. I don't know about the US, but here in Montreal, the last thing we need is more of this racial awareness bullshit.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10837 by Dog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:09 am

Slick Nick wrote:
Dog wrote:Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.


Although I agree that it's of concern, I try to evaluate politicians on their policies rather than their individual styles. Obama was a great speaker, a very lovable sophisticated mens, but his policies had me very disappointed. Trump is a caricatural bouffon, but if he leaves office with more positive than negative impact his society and the world, I will judge him on that.


Then we need to discuss the relative merits of different policies. I think Trump’s policy is rooted in isolationism, protectionism and a very transactional approach to relations, with both friends and foes. I think that is short sighted. It is the anti-thesis to a rules based system of cooperation and trade. I think it is very much focusing on the tree and missing the forest. Long term, you’re much better off in a system of rules based cooperation then in a system of one off transactions based on power dynamics. I don’t want to idealize. It’s not like the post WWII western led international system is a completely fair and rules based system. It is simply much more so than the alternative. Trump is not proposing an alternative rules based system based on wider interests. Trump is proposing a system of ´dog eat dog, to each their own...no strong alliances, no strong commitments’. A very individualistic and transactional view of relations. The anti-thesis of a rules based system based on aknowledgement that a commitment to rules and cooperation is in the best interest of all.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10838 by Dog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:18 am

Retardé S wrote:
Dog wrote:Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.


I think you really exaggerate what's going on in the west in regards to the neoconservative platform. You too easily conflate fascism with nationalism and patriotism. As far as I'm concerned there's more of a totalitarian threat coming from the left than fascism from the right. And the refusal to even entertain the thought of it can indeed cause broken societies, broken mens and womens and in the end tyranny, the tyranny you're so afraid of. Trump has a strong belief of "America first" wether that benefits his country in the end or not, I just don't see where the fascism terror comes from. There's currently an ongoing shift in culture, so there's hope that people finally judge others as individuals rather than judge their ideas based on their superficial identity in a power hierarchy based on race/gender/sexual orientation/social status ect.

I feel like the notion of individualism was way more prevalent when growing up, but the last decade or so we've seen it transform into collective identity tribalism and an attack on freedom of speech perpetrated by leftist entities in the west that in turns affects our way of dealing with great issues. Then in turn the anger of the people brings us Trumps, Le Pens and if culture and government marginalizes a big chunk of society, it will potentially create extremely chaotic consequences. That would also happen if we'd live in a society where even moderate liberal ideas and stances would be ungenuinely misconstrued and made taboo.

That's what leads me to believe it's not all really about politics, but more about humans' inability to cope with the outside world. (technology?)


What you have with Trump (and euro leaders of similar ilk) is right wing populism. With some autocratic impulses. Populism itself destroys liberal democratic fiber. By definition, it attacks institutions (courts, media, norms) to promote the interests of a misrepresented « real people ». I’d be just as concerned by a rise of left wing populism.

With regards to your second point, what is this rising authoritarian muzzling of freedom of speech coming from the left that risks taking over society and installing a leftist totalitarian regime that you speak of?
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10839 by mooseOAK » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:54 am

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10840 by senate » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:51 am

:hillary:

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10841 by senate » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:21 am



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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10842 by Dog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:34 am

Apparently they are notably seeking a ban from Trump being able to serve in any charity.

So, you’d have a president, barred from serving on any charity because of prior illegal financial conduct, that however is the chief executive of the country. « You’re so untrustworthy that you can’t be trusted to run a charity, but running the country is fine. »
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10843 by Big Susf » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 am

Although Mueller has been tight-lipped about evidence and witness identification up to this point, his team appears to have screwed up by outing journalists who “produced messages to the FBI” about Manafort’s alleged “coaching up” on lobbying practices. Manafort was indicted in D.C. back in October 2017 for alleged financial fraud and violating lobbying disclosure laws. There’s also a case against him in the Eastern District of Virginia (EDVA).

“Special Counsel accidentally exposed names of former journalists and European politicians allegedly involved in Manafort’s secret Ukraine lobbying. Just filed a new version with redactions,” explained Washington Post reporter Rachel Weiner:

“Unredacted government exhibit showing alleged attempts by Manafort and Kilimnik to influence witness testimonies has been released. The witnesses, journalists […] produced the messages to the FBI,” the Atlantic‘s Natasha Bertrand added.

In a later tweet, Bertrand wrote, “Oh boy. Looks like releasing this unredacted was a mistake–special counsel has just re-filed this and other docs with redactions. (Kilimnik’s name is redacted, too, interestingly.)”


https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/mu ... fort-case/
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10844 by Big Susf » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:12 pm

mooseOAK wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/willripleyCNN/status/1007255290545201153


Dennis 'The Unfunniest Comedian of All-Time' Miller's response:

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10845 by Dog » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:26 pm

Innaresting read, NYSAG press release:

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/attorne ... on-and-its

They even included an email from Lewandowski directing payments from the Foundation to Iowa orgs ahead of the caucuses.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10846 by Big Susf » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:05 pm

I can see Mattis smashing his monitor looking at this crap. "Salute for torturing one of my citizens to death"



This is not normal.
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10847 by Big Susf » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:30 pm

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10848 by Dr_Chimera » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:03 pm

lmao

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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10849 by mayoradamwest » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:01 pm

James Comey :rudy:
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Re: Murrica: fuck yeah

Post #10850 by jester » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:47 pm

Retardé S wrote:
Dog wrote:Still, we gotta address this autocratic style matcho mens nonesense that’s sweeping the West, Nick.


I think you really exaggerate what's going on in the west in regards to the neoconservative platform. You too easily conflate fascism with nationalism and patriotism. As far as I'm concerned there's more of a totalitarian threat coming from the left than fascism from the right. And the refusal to even entertain the thought of it can indeed cause broken societies, broken mens and womens and in the end tyranny, the tyranny you're so afraid of. Trump has a strong belief of "America first" wether that benefits his country in the end or not, I just don't see where the fascism terror comes from. There's currently an ongoing shift in culture, so there's hope that people finally judge others as individuals rather than judge their ideas based on their superficial identity in a power hierarchy based on race/gender/sexual orientation/social status ect.

I feel like the notion of individualism was way more prevalent when growing up, but the last decade or so we've seen it transform into collective identity tribalism and an attack on freedom of speech perpetrated by leftist entities in the west that in turns affects our way of dealing with great issues. Then in turn the anger of the people brings us Trumps, Le Pens and if culture and government marginalizes a big chunk of society, it will potentially create extremely chaotic consequences. That would also happen if we'd live in a society where even moderate liberal ideas and stances would be ungenuinely misconstrued and made taboo.

That's what leads me to believe it's not all really about politics, but more about humans' inability to cope with the outside world. (technology?)


Ah ... fascism is defined by authoritarian nationalism. And there's definitely a rise in groups pushing ethno-nationalist arguments on both sides of the Atlantic. So, yeah ....

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