Buy low trade options for this offseason

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vf
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #201 by vf » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 am

I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #202 by LeafOfBread » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:35 am

vf wrote:I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.

The funny thing is he actually had a pretty solid playoffs, aside from game 2 where he was a pylon on the penalty kill. Even by fancy stat measures, he finished with the best possession and was also 2nd best at shot suppression (something he's taken flack for previously).
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #203 by Thomas Malthus » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:46 am

vf wrote:I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.


He's shown brief flashes of good play over two seasons. He has tools, I have no doubt that he's talented, but he doesn't think the game well or make good decisions (with and without the puck, in all three zones). He's signed for six more seasons at the price of a top four defender and has yet to consistently demonstrate that he's qualified for that role. He's in his prime so the only growth you're likely to get is from him learning to play the North American ice or a bounce back from injuries (even before his broken foot and flu last season he wasn't great).

I was optimistic in his first season because he was learning the league and the ice and then towards the end of the year he had that concussion. So I was hopeful that he would come on strong in his second season after recovering and having figured out how to play in the NHL. Then this season came and he wasn't good and then on top of that his season was derailed by a broken foot and lost weight from a bad flu. Sure he looked good in the playoffs but why should that small sample outweigh everything we've learned about him so far?

I don't think Zaitsev is a Dubas kind of player. And I'm curious to see whether or not we keep him.
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #204 by vf » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:50 am

Zaitsev is not a Lou kind of player so who pushed for that contract and why would Shanahan approve such a long deal unless the vast majority of the front office was in on Zaitsev?
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #205 by LeafOfBread » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am

Thomas Malthus wrote:
vf wrote:I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.


He's shown brief flashes of good play over two seasons. He has tools, I have no doubt that he's talented, but he doesn't think the game well or make good decisions (with and without the puck, in all three zones). He's signed for six more seasons at the price of a top four defender and has yet to consistently demonstrate that he's qualified for that role. He's in his prime so the only growth you're likely to get is from him learning to play the North American ice or a bounce back from injuries (even before his broken foot and flu last season he wasn't great).

I was optimistic in his first season because he was learning the league and the ice and then towards the end of the year he had that concussion. So I was hopeful that he would come on strong in his second season after recovering and having figured out how to play in the NHL. Then this season came and he wasn't good and then on top of that his season was derailed by a broken foot and lost weight from a bad flu. Sure he looked good in the playoffs but why should that small sample outweigh everything we've learned about him so far?

I don't think Zaitsev is a Dubas kind of player. And I'm curious to see whether or not we keep him.

I think Zaitsev CAN think the game well, but he has some sort of mental block or anxiety. If you've read a few of his interviews you can see there's a very harsh inner critic present. I don't know if he's seeing a sports psych but I honestly think that would be best for him. He also had an excellent World Championships after the playoffs, and according to Babs he was 'dominant'.

Regarding your last point, on paper Zaitsev is everything that Dubas likes IMO. Unfortunately the execution has not fully been there but we've seen glimpses. I know you and AZ will point to his age but even still I think he's a late bloomer and you can't apply the standard aging curves onto him, especially because he has only been in the NHL for 2 years.
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #206 by Whit Dickman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:03 pm

also, d-men have different curves. plenty of room for progression in his game
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #207 by Honus Joglund » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:55 pm

LeafOfBread wrote:The funny thing is he actually had a pretty solid playoffs, aside from game 2 where he was a pylon on the penalty kill. Even by fancy stat measures, he finished with the best possession and was also 2nd best at shot suppression (something he's taken flack for previously).


Game four wasn't great because of his brutal job defending the two-on-one, but after that he was very good, even with Jake going into meltdown mode.

You can also tell that nobody watched the World Championships, because he was Russia's best defenseman. He led the team in ice time and was second in scoring behind Datsyuk.





He also had three assists in the quarterfinals against Canada.

He has a longer track record of being good than he does of being bad. He's consistently one of Russia's best defensemen at the Worlds and World Cup and his rookie season was good. You don't discard a talented RHD because he struggled in a season when he missed 20 games with a broken foot. Remember how Rielly's game went to shit last year after he sprained his ankle?
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #208 by Curry Rage » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:00 am

Thomas Malthus wrote:
vf wrote:I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.


He's shown brief flashes of good play over two seasons. He has tools, I have no doubt that he's talented, but he doesn't think the game well or make good decisions (with and without the puck, in all three zones). He's signed for six more seasons at the price of a top four defender and has yet to consistently demonstrate that he's qualified for that role. He's in his prime so the only growth you're likely to get is from him learning to play the North American ice or a bounce back from injuries (even before his broken foot and flu last season he wasn't great).

I was optimistic in his first season because he was learning the league and the ice and then towards the end of the year he had that concussion. So I was hopeful that he would come on strong in his second season after recovering and having figured out how to play in the NHL. Then this season came and he wasn't good and then on top of that his season was derailed by a broken foot and lost weight from a bad flu. Sure he looked good in the playoffs but why should that small sample outweigh everything we've learned about him so far?

I don't think Zaitsev is a Dubas kind of player. And I'm curious to see whether or not we keep him.


So, his health doesn't throw up a massive asterisk?
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #209 by Curry Rage » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:02 am

LeafOfBread wrote:
Thomas Malthus wrote:
vf wrote:I think you guys are hugely underselling Zaitsev.


He's shown brief flashes of good play over two seasons. He has tools, I have no doubt that he's talented, but he doesn't think the game well or make good decisions (with and without the puck, in all three zones). He's signed for six more seasons at the price of a top four defender and has yet to consistently demonstrate that he's qualified for that role. He's in his prime so the only growth you're likely to get is from him learning to play the North American ice or a bounce back from injuries (even before his broken foot and flu last season he wasn't great).

I was optimistic in his first season because he was learning the league and the ice and then towards the end of the year he had that concussion. So I was hopeful that he would come on strong in his second season after recovering and having figured out how to play in the NHL. Then this season came and he wasn't good and then on top of that his season was derailed by a broken foot and lost weight from a bad flu. Sure he looked good in the playoffs but why should that small sample outweigh everything we've learned about him so far?

I don't think Zaitsev is a Dubas kind of player. And I'm curious to see whether or not we keep him.

I think Zaitsev CAN think the game well, but he has some sort of mental block or anxiety. If you've read a few of his interviews you can see there's a very harsh inner critic present. I don't know if he's seeing a sports psych but I honestly think that would be best for him. He also had an excellent World Championships after the playoffs, and according to Babs he was 'dominant'.

Regarding your last point, on paper Zaitsev is everything that Dubas likes IMO. Unfortunately the execution has not fully been there but we've seen glimpses. I know you and AZ will point to his age but even still I think he's a late bloomer and you can't apply the standard aging curves onto him, especially because he has only been in the NHL for 2 years.


Are these curves going on point production? I mean, how else would we know much as there hasn't been a long record of deeper stats about defencemen collected.
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Re: Buy low trade options for this offseason

Post #210 by stoney » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:01 am

Zaitsev constantly chooses to ditch the puck in his own end.

Are there icing stats for d-men?

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